Re: Carol Thatch | Forum — The Modern Antiquarian

Carol Thatch

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Merrick Feb 10, 2009 10:54:05

Replying to shanshee_allures

I think you're right that Clarkson and Moyles get away with worse. I strongly suspect that it is, as you suggest, that they're a fucksight more popular than Thatcher.

I also wonder whether it makes any odds that they're blokes and blokes are meant to be all boorish and table-thumpy, whereas women are meant to be more sensitive.

Additionally, I think that Thatcher hit on the top-scorer in the hierarchy of oppression. It's much more acceptable to discriminate against someone because of their sexuality or gender than it is because of their ethnicity.

Imagine if Moyles was as racist as he is sexist, his head would roll before long.

shanshee_allures wrote:

Then along come the white middle classes speaking on behalf of an entire people and say 'oh it's ok for THEM to say that word'... What do they mean by THEM?

I think that's pretty clear. 'Them' refers to the people who were denigrated by the word in question.

As a white person my use of nigger is totally different that a black person using it.

Whilst oppression and discrimination can and do cut both ways, it's a matter of historical precedent and social norms.

In a society where people are denigrated for not being white, male, English, heterosexual, financially solvent, etc, then jibes based on these things carry more weight and need to be picked up on.

Jo Brand may well be sexist to men. That is not something to condone (so now *everybody* is criticised for things they didn't choose about themselves? Thanks Jo), but it is different to being sexist against women, as that compounds the already degraded position of women.

stray Feb 10, 2009 11:59:09

Replying to Merrick

Yeah, Moyles needs to go. The Jo Brand defence that she is sexist towards men is pretty weak, as it's a standard radical line to turn the tables and take things to the nth degree in the other direction. Its a radical line, its not supposed to be taken seriously, it's done to make you think about sexism. Sure, it will annoy people to do it, but it tends to only annoy the ones its aimed at (ie: Misogynists). Al Murray is trying to do the same thing with different issues.

Unfortunately, society norms being as fucked up as they are, they get taken seriously. As Jerry Sadowitz once said 'I'm a comedian, I've crossed the line that allows you to take me seriously'. Its very dodgy ground though, agreed. Same goes for radical feminism in general, many people just don't get it (including some feminists unfortunately). It's like all radical argument, and thought experiments in general, are now seen as either counter productive or part of the problem. It's a shame tbh.

Back to Moyles though, his sexism and homophobia, well, maybe I'm living in a complete fucking dream world (likely). But I'm sure only ten or so years ago he would have been out on his arse for those comments. Or am I wrong about that and I'm being hopelessly revisionist ? Honestly, I don't know anymore.

shanshee_allures Feb 11, 2009 14:09:36

Replying to Merrick

Merrick wrote:

shanshee_allures wrote:

Then along come the white middle classes speaking on behalf of an entire people and say 'oh it's ok for THEM to say that word'... What do they mean by THEM?

I think that's pretty clear. 'Them' refers to the people who were denigrated by the word in question.

As a white person my use of nigger is totally different that a black person using it.

I read that Nina Simone could not STAND the use of the word nigger by black people. She saw it as retarted and negative and counter to all she and her generation were trying to achieve. She saw the use of it in hip hop as one way of keeping undereducated and under confident young black men 'in their place' so to speak, sort of guaranteeing an audience and achieveing nothing. She saw some anger but a self serving type that justs wafts into infinity. Wish I could find an article on that.

She's not 'right' and neither are they, there can only be one 'right' answer here surely.

As for the dolly that caused all this...I remember them being on jam jars and in shops, and I swear on me kid's life I always saw them as the double of this guy

http://i102.photobucket.com/albums/m104/markbc79/MartinShaw_Pros.jpg

Yes, I did watch that cheesy nonsense as a kid

:-)

I didn't connect the rag dolls with black people at all. That was done for me later on unfortunately.

TBH, one phrase I find more offensive than most others is 'Uncle Tom'. It suggests there are ways us 'whites' expect black people to behave.

Bit like the stick Cond Rice got for using hair straighteners. Bloody shocking I'd say.