Re: UPLAND LANDSCAPE ALTERATION IN SOUTH EAST IRELAND.

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UPLAND LANDSCAPE ALTERATION IN SOUTH EAST IRELAND.

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thesweetcheat Feb 9, 2012 20:14:54

Replying to rockhopper

rockhopper wrote:

Many of the large stone cairns in south east Ireland have dished interiors. They also have small ante-chambers, and incorporate pits, for want of a better description. These have been described as "wind shelters" in the past, despite the fact that their shelter potential is in most cases zero.

Hello Rockhopper,

I've enjoyed this thread and some of the ideas you've mentioned are certainly worthy of a lot of consideration (especially the possibilities of "scree alteration" that you came into TMA with). I'm not an expert and I've never been to Ireland, so not qualified or experienced to know whether things there are similar to the sorts of stuff you see on the uplands in E&W.

That said, I must admit that the quote above, about the causes of "dished interiors", does cause me some doubts. Although perfectly possible the theory does seem to discount other equally (or possibly more) plausible reasons for why a lot of cairns have dished centres.

There are plenty of written accounts of barrows being dug into in the 17th/18th/19th centuries, either to look for treasure or (in later periods) to investigate using the only means available at the time, i.e. by digging into them. I would think that the majority of dished cairns I've seen have that shape due to recent-ish disturbance.

In addition, the same is true of earthen round barrows (often lowland), not just (upland) cairns. The scooped "doughnut" shape we've all seen is (I think) usually the result of digging. Ironically, the recent TMA thread about a certain Cheshire barrow that provided us with such an enlightened contribution the other day is such an example.

Going forwards in time, I note your brisk dismissal of the "wind shelter" cause for barrows to have hollowed-out interiors. Sadly this is something that still goes on today and that is precisely how many of these upland cairns have been treated in the last 100 years. Two specific examples for you:

Western Beacon on Dartmoor. A group of volunteers (including TMA-er Lubin) spent a lot of time dismantling wind shelters to restore the cairns there to their previous shape. Sadly some of them have already been "re-shelterised" since. This provides an example of it happening that has been documented very recently.

Bowscale Fell in the Northern Lake District. This mountain has a very substantial stone-built "wind shelter" on top of it. It looks very like a BA cairn that's been hollowed, but it isn't. The 25" OS maps from the late 19th century show a trig pillar there but no cairn (which they would have shown if it was there). It's a wind shelter built during the 20th century purely to provide a mountain top shelter (and I must admit it is effective to block the prevailing wind, having sat in it for a cupppa on a very windy, rainy and cold October day last year).

Neither of these causes of "dished interiors" disproves your theory. But both are demonstrable and documented as alternative causes in E&W and I think if SE Ireland is comparable, your theory will probably need to accommodate that.

Cheers,

thesweetcheat

rockhopper Feb 9, 2012 22:45:24

Replying to thesweetcheat

Thank you, that is indeed food for thought. I would certainly agree that many of the stone cairns I have encountered have been vandalised, dug into, and generally disturbed. There are two however I have come across which appear to be in their original condition. One is below Crohan west in the Knockmealdowns, and the other on Deelish mountain in the Comeraghs.
If I may explain.
The two mentioned above are not random piles of stones, but appear to be carefully constructed. Both have dished interiors, but both have distinct features within them. The one on Deelish is the most interesting, with a crescent shaped "entrance". Inside the dished interior are are two "ante chambers", that is to say, two seperate compartments to the cairn. Whilst some stones have fallen, or have been disturbed by livestock or walkers, the essential features of the cairn remain intact. Others, notably the one on top of Temple hill in the Galty mountains has been seriously brutalised in the not so distant past. Others have been damaged to a lesser extent, but seem to have similar distinct "compartments". What they represent can only be speculative.
My reasons for doubting the wind shelter theory is this. In all the years spent tramping these mountains, I tend not to go up when the weather is bad, bordering on the dangerous. This is only from personal experience, but when I do see bad weather coming in, I get the hell out of there. At no stage have I considered building a shelter, when in a quarter of the time I could be back in front of the fire at home.
Its my belief that the "wind shelters" had some other function, because most of those I've encountered would do little to promote a persons health or well being.

rockhopper Feb 11, 2012 19:14:00

Replying to thesweetcheat

Sweetcheat, my good man, you are absolutely priceless. Have just spent the last couple of hours going through your old blogs and the very excellent photo's therein. There can be no doubt that what I've seen is identical to what is over here.
Kenidjack Castle 14/6/11, photo 6. Seems to show identical scree alteration. Can't see the detail, but lots of same here.
Yellowmead s.e cairn. 7/8/10.Very similar indeed.
Cwm Ian cairn. 17/7/10. Identical to many in the Comeraghs.
Enclosure east of Down Tor 12/7/10. Identical angling of stones, with the longest tapers pointing skywards.
Round cairn east of Down Tor 12/7/10. Identical to accumulations of stone here.
Drizzlecomb. 12/7/10. Images 1 and 2. Identical
Tregiffian Vean 22/7/10. Image 4 of 4. Blocked chamber. Numerous examples in the Comeraghs. Described by local archaeo's as "field clearance" (and Popeye is the first lord sea admiral...)
Chun Castle. 15/6/10. Images 1 and 2. Swathes of rocks absolutely identical, with longest tapers pointing upwards.
Now if we are all agreed that these are not natural rock formations, then we have a whole new ball game. There is now no doubt in my mind whatsoever, that what happened along western Britain and what was going on in South east Ireland was one and the same thing. Hope that answers your last post Timpers old boy!