Re: Picts in Ireland | Forum — The Modern Antiquarian

Eire 90

Image by bawn79

Picts in Ireland

StewardsofGondor Dec 8, 2005 15:02:30

Replying to PeterH

Thanks explaining and for the link! Interesting stuff there.(i note that all your references refere to Britain though and not Ireland) I personally don't think that our ancestors (whatever name you wish to put on them) lived in a mono-cultural society. I would say that the dominate culture was Celtic but there were also the three tribes of Fir Bolg, the De Dannan, the picts (I've discovered thanks to TMA) etc. I know that it is likely my own clan, though indigenous Irish were not Celt's in origin. I have not finished reading everything on the link you gave but I think it is accepted at this stage that there was not a invasion of Celts, as previously thought, that drove out/killed off all others cultures. I agree that the Celts didn't have one, set, across-the-board culture by any means. I believe that there was great variation between the "Celtic Nations".
I was never taught "The idea of a universal 'Celtic cultural package'" but that as a people, culturally, we would be more similar with the Scots than other peoples. I was actually surprised to find out in my own reading that the Welsh were thought to be of Celtic origin too.
I would not go so far as you to think we were "force-fed" this idea of a Celtic nation thought I do think the other groups around that the time are horribly underrepresented in the school history curriculum. I feel, however, that some of the writer's comments were somewhat biased (read below)

• IRELAND Once the Vikings began to raid in 795, Ireland was permanently occupied, wholly or partly, by foreigners. The Danes were followed by the Anglo-Normans in the twefth century. During the sixteenth century the English imperial grip tightened, and relations were further embittered by the Reformation. Protestant England kept Catholic Ireland under subjection, sometimes incredibly brutal, until after the First World War.
Anybody else spot it? "Until after the first World War?? Where was this man in the 60's?
He also said,
"It is also a general rule that people recounting histories always have an axe to grind, or at least, have a set of presuppositions which make them present information in a certain way"

This is true of his own work also, I would very much like to know where he's from maybe then we could see what "axe to grind" he has. while we should always be wary about swallowing all the "facts" we are giving before checking them out you can also go to the other extreme where you end up chucking the good out with the bad, which I think is what this fella did. This is turning out to be thought-provoking and enlightening Peter, thanks again!

PeterH Dec 8, 2005 15:38:22

Replying to StewardsofGondor

History and prehistory are always written from a point of view. In other words - we all have some kind of axe to grind and can rarely be totally objective.

A lot depends on what is exactly meant by the Celts. Some early writers saw the term "Celts" as another name for "barbarians" - just everyone who was not Roman. So in that context - everyone outside of the Roman Empire was Celtic. Other writers were more specific and located them in the Alps as a specific tribe. Their culture was incredibly impressive and their artwork of La Tene and Hallstadt was traded and copied throughout Europe. Those people never migrated to Britain and Ireland

My bottom line is that there does not appear to be any evidence of a Celtic invasion into Britain or Ireland. The people are mainly indigenous and come from a common Indo-European speaking root as the languages show. The Celts were a successful Alpine tribe who moved eastwards and southwards, but not into Britain and Ireland. Sure, we imported their artwork and copied it, but we were never Celtic.

Imagine a Martian archaeologist in a 1000 years time. He excavates your town and finds the remains of very many Japanese televisions, cars and cameras. He might deduce that in the 20th and 21st centuries, your town along with the whole of Britain and Ireland was invaded by Japanese people. He would be wrong of course. DNA studies along with comparitive historical linguistics and archaeology will tell us more and more. The idea that the people of Britain and Ireland (including Wales and Scotland) were Celtic was invented in the 18th century by Edward Lhuyd. No one quite knows why, but his mistake has been with us for far too long.