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Gogmagog

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morfe Apr 26, 2004 14:30:48

Replying to BrigantesNation

"Technically, there are no links between Ogham and Ogmios, they have similar dounding names yes and it may be that one is derived from the other"

But what would a 'technical' link be? I can't see how one can be derived from the other and not be in some way linked?

"According to both Gallic and Irish myths Ogma was a warrior god, depicted as a wrinkled old man, wearing lion's skin cloak, carrying a bow and club"

I think Ogma (and Ogmios) are etymologically linked by 'Ag' (carve), so 'Ogham' could have come before Ogma rather than vice versa? I suppose it's possible that Ogmios and Ogma have no technical link, but the similarity is so profound that , as with so many deities, they are synonymously linked by the original word/thought/symbolism from which they were born, or from which they communicated their existence?

Kammer Apr 26, 2004 14:34:44

Replying to morfe

I'm 'agog' at this thread.

BrigantesNation Apr 26, 2004 15:09:51

Replying to morfe

OK - there are no links between Ogma and Ogmios.

The ROMAN gauls of the 2nd century put theur god Ogmious in the clothes of Heracles by dressing him in Lion Skin and Club. This had nothing to do with Ogmios and he was never portrayed as a warrior god - he was a god of eloquence and was thought as powerful as Heracles since the power of speach could stop a battle and could also start one.

BrigantesNation Apr 26, 2004 15:25:38

Replying to morfe

So if we look at the church of christian science, we could understand everything about Christianity?

All I'm saying is that we have to take care and I think the assumptions that have been made have often been incorrect. Ogmious for example was NOT portrayed as a warrior god - he was dressed up as Heracles since the Gauls wanted him to occupy the same place in their pantheon.

Later interpretations have decided that the club is therefore a sign of Ogmios, it is not, it is a dubius construct probably applied to many gods and when used in a Roman context must mean that this is Heracles we are seeing, linked with some local god, not necesarily Ogmios - for ogmios we must look for the ear-mouth links.

Since Ireland was never Romanised we must assume that if they did worship Ogmios he will not have had the club and was not a warrior god during the 2nd century. If we now say that Ogham/Ogma may be a derivative based on the similar name we must also think that this derivative may not reflect the "heart" of Ogmios but may just encompass some peripheral similarities.

Too many researchers have been very keen to find very tenuous links between these and other gods. For example, all the images of Cernounos - how many other gods had horns? Which type of horn would a god called "the horned one" have?