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"When someone has a mystical experience, they perceive that sense of reality to be far greater and far clearer than our usual everyday sense of reality..."

That seems to be true - in my experience.

Can a non-believer have a mystical or spiritual experience? If so does that mean that the non believer's material beliefs are wrong or does it lend weight to the theory that mystical experiences occur within the chemistry and physics of the brain? Do they happen and are perceived as external phenomena or are they hiccups within the cortex? Does a spiritual/mystical experience mean that you have to have a belief in deitties and/or spirits?

That is what bugs me - any views?

I would describe myself as a non-believer now, but I have had spontaneous experiences which are outside anything that I can explain or rationalise. But I do and did perceive the "reality to be far greater and far clearer than our usual everyday sense of reality..."

The beauty of these experiences ( which I never will talk about) is consciously unattainable, but there is such a painful and enduring longing for a repeat. Instead - I hide behind a barricade of scepticism as the alternative is too scary.

>Can a non-believer have a mystical or spiritual experience?<

Well, I don't see why not. A non-believer (I think) is someone who doesn't believe in a deity or deities and as such I'd count myself as a non-believer as well. I'm a bit more ambiguous about the soul however, and that's what has always attracted me to Buddhism. There is no god in Buddhism but there is a belief in the soul and it's journey towards enlightenment. The acceptance of the existence of the soul then allows the possibility of mystical or spiritual experiences. However, there is also the possibility that, as you say,

>...mystical experiences occur within the chemistry and physics of the brain?<

They might but I'm not sure if it actually matters where a mystical or spiritual experience takes place - the 'taking place' is all that is important. Again, in Zen Buddhism, there the constant rebuttal of rationalizing everything - hence the famous <i>koans</i> such as 'What is the sound of one hand clapping?' and 'Why is a mouse when it spins?' :-) There's also the wonderful dialogue between Abbot Kobori and Professor Lichtenberg who studies and teaches physics at the University of California -

...the Professor challenged the Abbot, 'In Zen Buddhism mind exists before matter. Do you agree?' When the Abbot replied 'yes' the Professor continued: 'Then I have a question. If all human beings disappeared and consequently all mind disappeared, I still believe under those circumstances that the Earth would rotate around the sun according to Newton's law of gravity. Consequently I believe matter exists before mind. What would you say to this?' The Abbot responded immediately: 'It is your mind that asks the a question!' *

>...there is such a painful and enduring longing for a repeat. Instead - I hide behind a barricade of scepticism as the alternative is too scary.<

Alone the wind and starry night
echoes of eternity
To look and see yet see no more
quietly moves infinity

And night's cold blanket slips apart
to meet again another day
Yet still the first may never dawn
Until we awake the first away


* <b>The One World of Lao Tzu and Modern Physics</b> by Akira Hasegawa. ISBN 4-473-01373-1. pp 22.

Can a non-believer have a mystical or spiritual experience?

Nice question!
Reading it I realise that I'm thinking that ONLY a non-believer can have a truly transcendent experience.
It seems to me that beliefs get in the way of being really REALLY open to the mysterious whateveritisness.

So the next question is
can a believer have a mystical experience that is not limited by their beliefs ?

The experiences I've had have been so much bigger than that bit of me that believes things, I can't imagine how the experience and the beliefs could co-exist.
Be interesting to hear.
The people I've met who seem to be in a sustained mystical state do not seem to have any beliefs.

The importance of place?
The bottom first fell out of my finite universe at a hill fort and ancient trackway in Northumberland. Somehow its like these places draw my attention to what is already here everywhere.

And what was all that about book learning and dogma ?

I'd rather stick with Nature thanks !

cx

Can a non-believer have a mystical or spiritual experience?
(your words)

YES! (rightly or wrongly) the drug e and the drug lsd has brought me to such a mind state many many times
whereby I felt a loss of self~identity and a richness of perception and reality felt devine . I believe that these buddhist monks were visiting the same place through meditation. Could it be that (like Huxley believed) that the senses are filters that allow only so much *reality*
to flow into our minds however under the Influence of such chemicals or meditive mind states the senses filter (fer lack of a better word) is suddenly opened up allowing the Mystical state to happen. *Maybe* this is something that some only feel at the moment of ones death? Like I stated over on head heritage forum
*my mind has been opened*
o¬)

I haven't read this whole thread, which Littlestone just pointed out to me, but I think I'll jump in here since some of the questions PeterH has posed here are exactly the ones the study is meant to address.

For one thing, there is no doubt that one can have this experience whether or not you have embraced a religion or even believe in any kind of invisible force, spirit or divinity. It is likely that it can happen to adherents of any religion, too, and because of its nature, they are likely to experience it as proof of their particular faith.

My greatest interest in the topic concerns such experiences in childhood. A remarkable number of people, as Rupert Sheldrake points out in Rebirth of Nature, trace important choices like choice of career back to these experiences, no doubt because of the compelling nature of what happens in those timeless moments. For some people it becomes a center toward which much of their lives tip, even if they don't consciously acknowledge it.

Some become attached to the place where it happened. Some seek signs of similar experience in writings, art, or music of others, some seek to express it through artistic means.

I find it remarkable that in our culture this remarkable experience is not much discussed. (Deja vu, much less compelling, is discussed far more.)Many, many people have had some version of it. For most of us, it reaches us in a very personal way, a way that makes it seem private and unique to us. And, in fact, from those I"ve been able to question it seems that although the experiences have many points in common, there's always an element that is unique to the person who receives it.

People who have had this experience show consistent signs. Since I started looking into this some years ago, I've been discussing it with my teenage son. He will now tell me when he's met "one" as he puts it, and suggests I send the survey to someone he's met at college who exhibits the signs.

If you examine the writings of people like Thom Hartman, Rupert Sheldrake, Thomas Berry, you find they were so struck by these childhood experiences that they wrote about them. There are many others. Van Morrison seems to try to paint the feeling again and again . . . It is a phenomenon, I believe, that has had a tremendous impact on Western culture. It has left its tracks all over. I'm looking into it, and I have some ideas about it.