The Doors of Perception

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Littlestone L
Littlestone Nov 13, 2005 14:02:20
Replying to PeterH

>Can a non-believer have a mystical or spiritual experience?<

Well, I don't see why not. A non-believer (I think) is someone who doesn't believe in a deity or deities and as such I'd count myself as a non-believer as well. I'm a bit more ambiguous about the soul however, and that's what has always attracted me to Buddhism. There is no god in Buddhism but there is a belief in the soul and it's journey towards enlightenment. The acceptance of the existence of the soul then allows the possibility of mystical or spiritual experiences. However, there is also the possibility that, as you say,

>...mystical experiences occur within the chemistry and physics of the brain?<

They might but I'm not sure if it actually matters where a mystical or spiritual experience takes place - the 'taking place' is all that is important. Again, in Zen Buddhism, there the constant rebuttal of rationalizing everything - hence the famous <i>koans</i> such as 'What is the sound of one hand clapping?' and 'Why is a mouse when it spins?' :-) There's also the wonderful dialogue between Abbot Kobori and Professor Lichtenberg who studies and teaches physics at the University of California -

...the Professor challenged the Abbot, 'In Zen Buddhism mind exists before matter. Do you agree?' When the Abbot replied 'yes' the Professor continued: 'Then I have a question. If all human beings disappeared and consequently all mind disappeared, I still believe under those circumstances that the Earth would rotate around the sun according to Newton's law of gravity. Consequently I believe matter exists before mind. What would you say to this?' The Abbot responded immediately: 'It is your mind that asks the a question!' *

>...there is such a painful and enduring longing for a repeat. Instead - I hide behind a barricade of scepticism as the alternative is too scary.<

Alone the wind and starry night
echoes of eternity
To look and see yet see no more
quietly moves infinity

And night's cold blanket slips apart
to meet again another day
Yet still the first may never dawn
Until we awake the first away


* <b>The One World of Lao Tzu and Modern Physics</b> by Akira Hasegawa. ISBN 4-473-01373-1. pp 22.

R Rune
Rune Nov 13, 2005 18:46:06
Replying to Littlestone

>Can a non-believer have a mystical or spiritual experience?<

I don't see why not. I think we all have similar experiences, it's just our explanations of them that are different, depending on our frames of reference.

If, for example, at one place, a female "otherworldly presence" was experienced by a lot of people, a Pagan may well say they'd encountered the Goddess, a Christian may say they'd encountered the Virgin Mary, a Buddhist could well consider they'd connected with Kwan Yin and an atheist could have concluded that they'd felt something that seemed very feminine.

All of them had a very similar experience, but for each one, the interpretation differs according to their own self-imposed beliefs/comfort zone.

This is why describing and talking about subjective experiences is so difficult, we don't have any common reference points or adequate language to communicate what's happened outside our own frames of reference and we tend to either generalise or use flowery or vague language. Maybe these things don't translate into words.

This is very interesting, I linked to it on another thread, but feel it deserves a place here, too.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,8123-1509923_1,00.html

As for my own experiences, I don't know where they're generated, whether they are my brain reacting to outside stimuli at sites although they do happen in other places too, or whether it's something else, a force or "the universe" or whatever. One thing's for sure, whatever it is, whatever label anyone wants to put on it, it's more than incredibly pleasant and often profound, I'm up for it anytime.

Rune

C CianMcLiam
CianMcLiam Nov 13, 2005 19:37:29
Replying to Littlestone

>>They might but I'm not sure if it actually matters where a mystical or spiritual experience takes place - the 'taking place' is all that is important.

Unless of course the person who had the 'experience' draws conclusions about the outside world from the experience as has been obvious here a few times!