Re: January drudion & I've had it with the Drude's xenophobic insinuations

January drudion & I've had it with the Drude's xenophobic insinuations

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Bonzo the Cat Jan 7, 2008 14:43:35

Replying to shanshee_allures

Hey shanshee,

shanshee_allures wrote:

Thing is though, it might have been more useful if you yourself could point out where Cope went wrong. To say it's no good to 'generalise' (which seems to be the main gist of your resopnse) is basically generalising also. Correct some of his statements for him (and us!).

I see your point, but it was in the heat of the moment and I've been reading his drudions and hearing/seeing other rants for some considerable time now, and there was at several points something that disturbed me but I couldn't quite put the finger on... but which somehow reminded me both of sloganesque reasoning when I was still spraying protest on walls with the stalinists, as well as the new "let's be really critical of our own leftwing thought" attitude of many young intellectuals (who end up right). Like I said however, assuming everybody here knowes Cope's drudions, I thought I might just as well take this example and make the point, rather than going through all his drudions and picking out insinuations.

Still, even then I fail to see how I generalise in the same way, as (a) I do not generalise over people; (b) I do not generalise over Cope. In fact, I'm not judging Cope at all as a person; I'm just judging certain of his actions, as actions are the only basis for morality. I'm just making a point that, whereas his rants are probably always well-meant, when he oversteps the line of generalisation it's always in the same direction: by taking on islam and by referring to a "society" or a "culture" - i.o.w. by condemning an entire label. While this makes for forceful language and an occasionally funny read, that kind of systematic display of very subtle bias is onworthy of any free- or forward-thinking motherfucker, as he claims to be.

shanshee_allures wrote:

There lies also the danger of becoming Invertedly pro Islam without a clue the same way as many seem to becoming anti Islam without a clue.

Well, I'm not pro - I'm not contra either, related to the above idea that it's impossible to create morality judgements on anything but actions and their consequences. What I mean is, there's no point in being pro or contra islam, as we're talking about a label here, the judgement of which is only relevant in as far as we use it in terms of "I'm anti religion". However, being a label it is useless as a general tag carrying judgment applying to any group of people, since they're very heterogenous. What I mean is, it becomes a bit foul when you start judging any person who dares to adhere to islam just *because* he does that - and this only on the basis on some theoretical assumption based on a skewed vision on world history (and a complete blindness to -unsexy- economic processe).

I'll say more: even though I am probably one of the most anti-religious people I know, I'm still not sure whether that does me any real good. I mean, if religion didn't "work" on some level, people would have stopped believing long ago.

Arf!

& thanks for the compliment

dodge one Jan 7, 2008 15:08:11

Replying to Bonzo the Cat

While you seem to be in command of a worthy solar lexicon,it expresses little ability to convey emotion or feeling towards the issue at hand. I'd like to see you go record with how you feel about issues that effect us all.The world is moving on in so many levels. Not everything is O.K. ! Under the guise of 'thats my culture' or otherwise. Communal stoneing! Female emasculation!The ubiquitous Burka!Segregation!Religous persecution!Wholesale De-forestation!Institutionalized poverty! How is it that the planet can not even agree to a standard voltage,let alone how to produce said voltage. Ever notice that most conversations regarding anything important almost allways take a tangent, Religous conviction vs. real world problems.As far as i know we have not had so much as a telephone call from any deity in a very long time. We are on our own here. Progress{whatever that is anymore} is going to have it's price.A pretty good start is what john wrote in the song imagine.He was a protester too.

shanshee_allures Jan 7, 2008 15:40:39

Replying to Bonzo the Cat

Bonzo the Cat wrote:

The thought of my daughter being forced through societal expectations to wear a veil, or marry who she's told to makes me feel sick, so I feel sick for all the pooor girls and women who are to do so too (else they might become pariahs or dead).

The thought of my nephews (I don't have a son) todger being adapted as a babe through some religious requirement makes me sick too.

Now if a woman matures enough to make the choice of wearing a veil or to ask her dad to pick her husband, and a man decides when he's old enough to go for circumcision, then up to them. The fact this happens to young girls too (without any anaesthetic as if it wasn't bad enough!) is heartbreaking.
Dawkins cites that sort of thing as child abuse - and he's right.

**BTW I'm not strictly a Dawkins groupie, I just happen to find alot of what he says I've always felt too.**

There are tons more of course.
Point is, as soon as you criticise a religion en mass you are accused of racism. Why? Obviously the a-holes of this world can't separate the two, and will call Sikhs and Hindus 'Muslims' just for conveniece.
I detest and feel opposed to many of the enforced culutural trappings of religion. If they happen in Afghanistan, or Iraq or Africa, does that mean I hate Afghanis,Iraqis, or Africans? Eh, no. Those are simply human beings, some will be good, some will be gits, and if you don't care to separate that from what they have been 'labelled' then that's the worst sort of ism there is (bugger knows what to call it though!)

I have C of E on my birht certificate. Why? Sez fucking who?
We never ever went to church!
Thankfully, that is no longer a requirement, but decades back you were required to culturally label your kid soon as they were born.

So I'm afraid religion sucks eggs all round - and the reason 'we' haven't learned to live without it is, eh, power, fear, etc etc.

Rant done.