well, without wanting to turn thyis just into an argument about the use of political violence.....
Dog 3000 wrote:
Who was more revolutionary, Che & Malcolm or Guttenberg & Steve Jobs? (Or Leary and Owsley?)
I think focusing on "political street fighting" is largely missing the point of how change really happens.
well, Leary and Owsley changed nothing. Great writers, but as agents of change? What material changes did they bring to peoples lives? None.
Steve Jobs? Ask the workers in his shitty Chinese factories how revolutionary they think he is. He's as unpopular as Mao I'd imagine.NOw if you'd said the US military/library service for hte development of the internet, then you kmight have been on to something! That (and Guttenburg) did make a profound revolutionary change to society, absolutely humungous. Capitalism can be revolutionary (tho not so much any more, modern advances are generally much smaller than they were one or two hundred years ago), tho these days it usually requires the state to actually carry through the idea of change and make it a reality for actual people. And even then, they still leave the vast majority of power in the same hands. The internet has opened up spaces for the promulgation of radical ideas, but it is still dominated by the same old bourgeois enterprises. And will be until we change the whole basis of how our society is run.
IanB wrote:
I think anyone who has spent enough time around St Pauls / LSX recently to form an opinion would probably find that you are more in step with the prevailing vibe at Occupy than the "psuedo-revolutionary". Bloody revenge fantasies are just that ....
But Occupy has achieved sweet FA. It doesnt even know what it wants to achieve. Its wonderfully well-meaning heart in the right place stuff (& I've bunged into the crowdsourcing Ians linked to elsewhere), but its nothng more than a temporary focal point for a eneral vague feeling of injustice. Its also attracted its share of comlpete nutters, conspiraloons with barely concealeed racist agendas (It's the lizards! Who are all Jews). To be fair to Occupy, those people were told to fuck off as far as possible, but its still full of a disparate bunch who have no idea how to achieve their (ill-defined) goals.
The Sea Cat wrote:
Whatever else anyone may say, Gandhi proved the point with his mass peaceful protests. The British Empire put their full agreesive might against him and his followers, and that completely backfired on them in shame and bewilderment. That's the way, not pseudo-anarchic nonesense.
Sorry, but thats rubbish. Gandhi didnt force the Brits out of India, an armed struggle (combined with an economic struggle) did. We are only taught about Gandhi over here (for fairly obvious reasons) but there were mass uprisings and violence against the Brits across the country from the turn of the century. Such violence was, in small part, actually propelled by Gandhis actions, when he, with supreme arrogance, declared himself to be the only true representative of all India, who could speak for everyone. In so doing he not only fucked off a lot of hindu's, he really fucked off a lot more muslims, who then led the separation of Pakistan and Bangladesh. Which has worked out well, as we know.
IanB wrote:
Anyone carrying a gun is an oppressor in fact or in waiting ...
We're all oppressors in fact or waiting Ian. Thatcher never held a gun, she didnt need one. But our enemies do hold guns, and unless we can get the people to hold them to come over to us (which we should obviously try to do) then we will have to take the fight to them. The alternative is perpetual oppression and immiseration. Its the chinese apple worker throwing themselves off a balcony, its the Iraqi being shot dead to protect oil values. Its ATOS stopping a disabled persons benefits and sending them out to work despite them not being able to bloody well walk.
Violence isn't nice, at shouldnt be mytholgised or idolised, but it shouldnt be denied either. Or we will face a future of a boot stamping on a human face - forever.
Love & peace man (with a gun discreetly hidden in the shed)
