Re: Circles under churches | Forum — The Modern Antiquarian

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Circles under churches

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Littlestone Sep 29, 2009 12:26:19

Replying to hotaire

York Minster is the only church in Christendom ever to have hung mistletoe within its walls - and the fact that it is York Minster means an archbishop must have made the decision.

Very interesting - thanks.

What we've found, visiting churches over the last few years, is just how many seem to follow the same pattern of being very near a water source - an ancient sacred site? There are then often signs of Roman occupation on or near the site, and then later of a church there incorporating (sanding) stones, Roman bricks etc in its fabric. The Church of St Mary with St Leonard at Broomfield in Essex http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/11391/church_of_st_mary_with_st_leonard_broomfield.html is a good example of this pattern. Pewsey church http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/3867/pewsey.html in Wiltshire though is an example of some really beautiful large stones incorporated in its foundations and under some of its buttresses, and it's not hard to imagine them as once forming part of a stone circle.

The question is whether the Church was suppressing or assimilating the older beliefs - perhaps it was doing both in different places at different times; or perhaps, as you quote, "Do not destroy pagan temples, but convert them to Christian use so that the people will feel more comfortable coming there." really was the tactic used and the stones we now see under some churches are indeed the remains of 'converted pagan temples'.

wideford Sep 29, 2009 13:21:11

Replying to Littlestone

In Orkney, too, kirks and graveyards are situated near water. But no tradition of temples, the nearest thing is ones built on brochs.

moss Sep 29, 2009 14:16:36

Replying to Littlestone

Littlestone wrote:

York Minster is the only church in Christendom ever to have hung mistletoe within its walls - and the fact that it is York Minster means an archbishop must have made the decision.

Though this may be wrong 'converted pagan temples' hit something in my mind, Avebury (just down the road) had two French monks from their mother house in France, which was built and incorporated a pagan temple at one time (1st century AD.) So given the rather strange fact that we have two churches situated very close together..why? near to streams and overlooked by Adam's Grave longbarrow, could it be that the supposed stone circle under the church was there, and the powers that be were so horrified by this pagan manifestation that they had to build two churches to keep it suppressed ;)

hotaire Oct 3, 2009 16:20:32

Replying to Littlestone

"The question is whether the Church was suppressing or assimilating the older beliefs - perhaps it was doing both in different places at different times; or perhaps, as you quote, "Do not destroy pagan temples, but convert them to Christian use so that the people will feel more comfortable coming there." really was the tactic used and the stones we now see under some churches are indeed the remains of 'converted pagan temples'."

It was assimilating as much as necessary in order to suppress. t's important to realize that Christianity was not welcomed with open arms by many. It was accepted by kings, and the people were ordered to accept it - and the resentment of the people is well illustrated by the following story :

Around 650 a.d., a young Saint Cuthbert watched as a group of people jeered at monks being helplessly washed down the Tyne before a strong current. Cuthbert admonished them, saying that they should pray for the monks’ salvation. He was told :

“Nobody is going to pray for them. Let not God raise a finger to help them! They have done away with all the old ways of worship and now nobody knows what to do.” - Bede’s 'Vita Sancti Cuthberti', Chapter 3, completed in 721 a.d.

So church authorities were forced to assimilate whatever it took to convert them. Brigid, the great pagan goddess of the north (i.e. Brigantia - a kingdom named after her) became St. Brigid. Wells and streams, probably the homes of pagan water spirits, became associated with famous Christians - St. Helen's Well, St. Hilda's Well, etc. They didn't destroy these places - that would have INCREASED the resentment - but took enough pagan items into Christianity for the people to find it less objectionable.

It was a matter of assimilate what is necessary in order to suppress the remaining bulk of heathenism.