You might like to check out Yatesbury church sometime.
That also has Sarsens in the foundation.
A.C.Smith wrote "I must not omit the strange tradition prevalent in the parish that at one time houses extended from Yatesbury to Abury, and that the two parishes were joined!"
PeteG

The trend in Ireland was slightly different in the early Xtian days. When the first monks arrived they were, more often than not, given an old fort to build their churches in. This means there are a lot of round churchyards in Ireland. It is my personal belief that this was primarily to give the monks no chance of stealing more land, because the banks of the rath/fort clearly defined an area. Some of the oldest tales tell of monks performing miracles to get more land and if these stories are actually contemporary then local kings would have been rather wary.

One such story is told of St Kevin at Glendalough. The kind told him he could have the land that his lame goose could fly around - Kevin promptly healed the goose and got half the kingdom!

Many of the old forts have legends of being inhabited by the little folk too and people wouldn't live in them anymore for fear of upsetting the Gentry. Ireland seems to have been converted in a different way to most places. There wasn't a persecuted underground cult first. Whereas Xtianity had two bites of the cherry in most places (after the Roman Empire collapsed many places seemed to have returned to pagan beliefs for a while), but in Ireland the transition seems to have been smooth. The usual Piper related stories about stone circles exist, but many pre-Christian practices were assimilated into Xtianity rather than removed altogether: wells, bullauns, pilgrimages to the tops of mountains were all taken in and are still in use today in many cases.

Some of the circular Cillin or church enclosures could have been henges rather than forts, but noone has really undertaken this study.

I don't know of any Irish churches that were definitely built in a stone circle, but I know of many that are built on what were obviously (to me) ancient sacred sites. The church on Church Mountain in Wicklow for instance is built on the base of a passage tomb, the stones of the cairn being used to build the church while leaving the cairn clearly defined: http://megalithomania.com/show/site/999

Another example of reuse is at Labbamaloga in Cork. Here the door of the 8th century church ( http://megalithomania.com/show/image/2816 ) is probably made using the stones from the stone circle or avenue in the next field ( http://megalithomania.com/show/image/2821 ). Another thing to note about this church is that it does not align east-west, but towards the hill hilighted in the second image. The larger and newer church right next to it aligns properly east-west making the alignment of the original very blatant.

I have no proof for it but I believe that the church at Churchill, near Chipping Norton, Oxfordshire was probably built on the site of a stone circle. You can just SMELL it somehow...
http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/3742

There's also the Alphamstone in the Far East, of course http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/2064
J
x

I don't think there are any stones there but Horfield parish church is said to be in a henge.Circular church yard and all.

H

Bolton Parish Church is said to be built 'on the site of a burial mound'.

I did a weblog piece on Beeby henge in Leicestershire. It holds a special fascination with me; it being where I grew up, before moving out.

Beeby (all saints) now defunct, sits upon a henge monument, with a holy well @ its roadside. was this a direct christianisation of a pagan site? I am intrigued as to the epidemiology of this; just how many are there out there? Avebury perhaps remains the most immfammy of the lot.

Cheers,

Mooncat. x

Probably not quite what you're looking for, but the main church in Chesham (who's name escapes me, NGR SP9501), appears to be built upon a circle of puddingstones.

Most of the main pillars have a sizable puddingstone at the base. Some photos can be found here: http://www.imperfect.freeserve.co.uk/Chesham/ though they'll be disappearing in a few weeks (the photos, not the puddingstones!), so grab 'em quick if they're of interest!

Here's a snippet ...

<i>The Greeks and the Romans continued this idea of yew as a symbol of death and regeneration. The tree was sacred to the goddess Hecate - Romans sacrificed black bulls wreathed in yew branches to Hecate at the midwinter feast of Saturnalia in the hope that she would provide an easier winter and spare the rest of their herds.

Christians built their churches on the Druids' ancient yew tree sacred groves, so continuing the association of yew trees with places of worship. For them the yew symbolised the resurrection of Christ and it was used in churches at Easter and on Palm Sunday, and burnt for ash on Ash Wednesday. They also put yew in the shrouds of the dead. Irish yews were much loved by Victorians and can be found forming long dark sombre avenues in graveyards of that period.

Legend has it that the roots of graveside yews reach into the mouths of the corpses. This is life in the mouth of death and is again the symbol of resurrection. Stories abound in Irish legends of yew trees growing out of graves to unite star-crossed lovers in death. Deirdre and Naoise's graves were staked by the High King Conchobar in order to separate them; yet the stakes grew into yew trees which wove their branches together over the graves and joined the lovers even in death. Tristan and Iseult were buried either side of the nave in the chapel of Tintagel Castle, Cornwall, and within a year yew trees had grown out of each grave. Despite being cut down many times they eventually grew together and intertwined, never again to be parted.</i>

from http://www.cvni.org/news_and_articles/yew/yew.html

Just a little factoid. The spreading yew tree isn't found much in Ireland. There are a few, the oldest being at Crom (Crom just happens to be the name of a Celtic god. Coincidence? Probably.) Irish yews are tall and the branches rise up similar to a poplar. There's one in this picture - http://www.megalithomania.com/show/image/4427

While we're talking churches I just want to slip one in. There are many tales about holy wells that tell of monks striking the ground and water sprouting forth. Were they just very good dowsers?

Think it was PeterH who provided a link to the sarsens under the church foundations at Cliff Pypard (sorry but seem to have mislaid that link). Just to confirm that there are indeed two sarsens at the front of the church and to the right of the porch. It was absolutely tipping it down when I was there last Saturday and, as the back of the church is also partly fenced off, I didn't get round to verifying whether or not there are more sarsens at the back as well. Also, I've never actually walked all the way round the outside of St James' Church at Avebury so, on the off chance that there might be sarsens there, I checked that out as well. Bingo! there's one stone in the foundations at the back of the church.

The pattern of placing sarsens in the foundations of the churches at Avebury, Cliff Pypard, Pewsey and perhaps other churches in the area, is just too similar to be coincidence - just wonder if there isn't documentary info tucked away in some church record somewhere for the reasons <i>why</i> it was done.

Would a "possible long barrow under a church" fit in this thread?

A friend of mine found a lovely little church in the New Forest that sits atop the big end of a wedge-shaped mound... It seems to just lurch out of the ground in otherwise fairly flat environs. To all intents and purposes it FEELS like a long barrow, and it don't half LOOK like one, but can I find any information about it? Can I 'eck!

The church is in Bramshaw and is dedicated to St Peter. It's full of yews (natch) and I was half expecting to find a well in the grounds! The map ref, according to one website that mentions the church, is SU264166, for anyone interested (and, no - it's NOT marked as a barrow on the map)

I have pics but haven't got around to posting them anywhere yet...

G x

Does anyone have any info re circles/stones under London churches?

In Buckinghamshire and Middlesex, many a church is built with fragments of some bashed up sarsen thing-a-me-jig built into it; St Andrew's in Kingsbury (Stukeley missed this one but called it's location a Roman fort) and Amersham and Chalfont St Giles to name two others ... Harrow-on-the-hill sees the church built on a temple to Diana (apparently) and what of St Paul's ? Who knows!

I'd love it to be some symbolic use in the sense of it giving some kind of retrogresive energy to our ancestors ... but I would suppose they were just bashed up by a bunch of God-bothers bent on upping a building to do the old 'Ace, King, Queen, Jack ... can you hear me at the back?' routine in ...

Sorry to resurrect this old thread but I'm sure I read somewhere (maybe here) that there are sarsens under the church at All Cannings (or was it Bishops Cannings or another church in that area - don't mean the churches at Alton Barnes or Alton Priors). Can't find anything under Christianised Sites but any info would be appreciated - thanks.

Apologies for relifting this thread back but I thought you might find the following interesting in your discussions. I am a new member with no training or qualifications in ancient culture or history, I have simply grown up in Wiltshire with Stonehenge in my back garden and am in awe of everything ancient in wiltshire, with specific interest in Pagan cultures, practise, traditions and "buildings".

I am getting married soon and wanted to get married somewhere with "history" and where I am lucky enough to live in North Newnton (which apparently has one of the oldest churches in Britain) I also come under the remit of the Altons (Barnes and Priors) and have recently visited the Church in Alton Priors. What I found was very interesting. I took along my boyfriend who is very experienced in renovations of old buildings and has an unbiased point of view.

The church stands on a North-South axis (Xtian axis I believe). If you look closely you will find an east-west allignment (pre-christian allignement) where the old doors have since been bricked up on what is clearly the older part of the building. The old doors being in line with the Yew Tree. At the top of one bricked up door is a carving, I believe its saxon origin with the 2 circles (one inside of the other) with a dot in the middle - something which I believe is common with Saxon jewellery decorations?????

If you also look closely at the different stages of building at Alton Priors you can see very distinct sections (this is where the boyfriend came in handy!). You can clearly see that the original building (the oldest) was more of a box shape with 2 doors on an east-west allignment. On the Yew side you can clearly see trusses where wooden supports would have once stood (similar to North Newnton wooden supports (which has it's first "written" evidence of there being a church in 968 - awe insipring if you ever get the chance to visit). We couldn't identify any evidence of windows as such but I'm sure we will return soon as it's only down the road.

Please let me stress the point that I may probably be wrong on various points such as allignments, decorations etc posted here and I do not wish to enter into what seemed quite "harsh typing!" in previous posts - I just wanted to supply some interesting information on the allignment contradictions of the clearly older building compared to the new additional buildings. Awww, I hope I don't receive a thrashing for this post!

Littlestone - as you live in Essex (I think I read this in a previous post) and as I live about 5 minutes away from the Altons, and I will be visting there again soon, if there's anything you wish for me to do, just let me know as I would be happy to help.

Apologies for resurrecting this old thread again but some peeps may not have seen it first time around and, since the last post over a year ago now, there have been a few new finds of stones under churches which may be of interest. For example the stone under the pew at Alphamstone that ocifant and others have already mentioned now seems to have a twin. I don't know if it's only recently seen the light of day but the stone lies opposite the one that's under the pew. This second stone is embedded in the north side of the west wall - http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/img_fullsize/70874.jpg What's interesting is that both the sarsen under the pew and the one on the north side of the west wall seem to be placed either side of the old west entrance (now blocked) to the church.

See also - http://www.northstoke.blogspot.com/ Tuesday, 7 October 2008 for up-to-date observations on Alphamstone.

You're almost certainly right that it's an accommodation. The convolutions early Christian authorities went through to convert the English were quite remarkable.

"Do not destroy pagan temples, but convert them to Christian use so that the people will feel more comfortable coming there." "If the people insist on sacrificing an animal, let them do it – just so long as they sacrifice it to God."

Both of these instructions are to be found in a letter from Pope Gregory to Abbot Mellitus, who had come to England with St. Augustine. The letter's dated 601. It's quoted extensively in Bede's Historia Ecclesiastica.

York Minster is the only church in Christendom ever to have hung mistletoe within its walls - and the fact that it is York Minster means an archbishop must have made the decision.

What's remarkable about the two sites you mention is that they suggest (very strongly) that people were still worshipping in stone circles as late as the seventh century a.d. Interesting.

Midmar, stone circle in church yard, Kinellar church wall built on top. Leochel Cushnie built on top of a cairn, Marnoch built within a circle.

Perhaps what this thread has illustrated is just how much more common (and widespread) is the evidence for pre-Christian 'structures' at Christian sites; stones found either under a church (Alton Priors), built into its fabric (Pewsey) or scattered close by (Ingatestone). Perhaps it's also safe to assume now that many of these pre-Christian sites started off as (sacred) meeting places, often close to rivers, streams or wells. The number of churches found along the Winterbourne and Kennet seem to reinforce the idea of a still very active pre-Christian belief system along those waterways well into the second half of the first millennium - a belief system that the early Church here found necessary to suppress or assimilate.

In some ways the question of, 'Were the pre-Christian belief systems suppressed or assimilated?' is more interesting than the (surviving) Christianised megaliths themselves. It may be of concern, however, that the Church itself is sometimes not aware of these megaliths (sometimes literally on its doorstep) and this lack of awareness could lead to them being lost or damaged. TMA has gone a long way towards recording some megaliths under its Christianised Sites section, and there are several contributors here who are in the process of compiling their own lists - perhaps it will be possible to bring them all together at some point.

It's good that the awareness level for Christianised sites and Christianised megaliths has been raised but also at risk are the megaliths that lie scattered along our roads - megaliths which are now used as buffers between house or shop fronts and passing traffic. Perhaps some sort of record of these is also needed so they are not torn up and cast aside the next time a new house or shop is built, or road improvements are implemented. With that in mind please see - http://themodernantiquarian.com/forum/?thread=57970&message=730021

Was going to try to add Les Sept Saintes (see Burl, Megalithic Brittany) to the Christianized Sites list, but couldn't figure out how. Never posted a site.

Only information on line is a Google Book posting of the third edition of Cadogan Brittany. Excellent book for stones seekers.

Les Sept Saint(e)s church; village of Les Sept Saintes, near Plouaret, France.

Burl: "Without doubt one of the megalithic curiosities of Brittany." The south transept is built partly over an allee-couverte. A wooden gate closes off the end of the dolmen, and little statues of Brittany's patron Seven Saints can be seen inside. Existing church not ancient; 1702-1714. Possibly the site of an earlier church.

Cute as a bug and twice as strange.

Not quite in the vein of ‘Circles under churches’ but might be of interest. Odinist Fellowship demands return of two church buildings.

Edit: The first comment there might also be of interest.

Hello. I recently analysed survey diagrams of the curvi-linear graveyard platform at Overchurch , Upton on the Wirral. The original church was Norman (possibly Saxon) but the platform appears to be much older. I analysed the platform geometry and found the site of the Norman church and its shape was related to the platform. In your words the church position 'respected' the geometry I believe was once marked by several stones. (Only two remain). The platform sits near the centre of a vary larger circle of (at least) 7 stones. See my book 'The Overchurch Mystery'. Perhaps there was often an accommodation between the incoming Christians and the local pagans? The Overchurch site features appear to mark the 4 old cross-quarter day festivals for example.
Professor D P Gregg (retired)