Darley Dale 2
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Darley Dale

St Helen's church

Your talk of sexuality & the hag has been rattling around my brain for a couple of hours now. Sheela really is quite a riddle (I don't like mysteries!). Let's just suppose, again, that Sheela is a pagan goddess (my instinct tells me she is even if my head can't prove it!). What an interesting juxtaposition - the hag's cunt. On the one hand there's the hag-like and deathly thin body, sticky-out ribs etc. that FourWinds describes. On the other hand there's the strong emphasis given to the source of all life - the cunt. Death & life rolled into one being.

I appreciate what you're saying about Sheelas as symbols of sexuality, too. Sex for its own sake, not sex for procreation. This just mystifies me even more, though. I can think of few symbols that would offend Christian sensibilities more. Indeed, it could be argued that such a symbol was especially designed to offend Christians. So what the hell are they doing in churches? I hate mysteries!

It doesn't really prove it one way or the other but here's a thought. We know that Christian worship went on at pagan sites. Many stone circles, for instance, had crosses raised in them and were turned into Christian temples. Many churches stand on the sites of older pagan temples. It seems to me that its not unreasonable to suggest the opposite - that (thinly disguised) pagan worship went on in Christian churches. A great many Irish saints are thinly disguised pagan deities, after all (St. Bridgit of Kildare, for instance, being almost completely undisguised!).

The problem with this, of course, is that the Sheelas are from the 10th century at the earliest. The question is this: how long did pagan traditions continue after the coming of Christianity. I'm pretty sure that Margaret Murray is not very respected as a historian in academic circles. I'm not an academic, though, so here's a quote from God of the Witches (I'd be interested to see if anyone can pick holes in her argument):

"When Christianity first arrived in Great Britain it came in from the West and established itself among the people rather than the rulers. Centuries later other missionaries entered on the East. The Christian Church had by this time become more organised, more dogmatic, more bent on proselytising. The main attack, therefore, was not on the people but on the royal families, particularly on the queens whose influence was well understood. Paganism, however, received continual reinforcements in the successive invasions of heathen peoples; Danes, Norsemen, Angles, Jutes and Saxons poured in and took possession. In judging of the history of early Christianity in Britain it must always be remembered that the people who brought it in on the East coast were foreigners, who never amalgamated with the natives. Augustine was Italian, and for more than a century no native Britons were advanced to high places in the Church. Theodore of Tarsus, with the aid of Hadrian, the negro, organised the Church in England in the seventh century, Italians and other aliens held the high offices. The Augustine mission and their successors concentrated on the rulers, and through them forced their exotic religion on a stubborn and unwilling people. This is very clear in the reign of Canute, whose conversion was hardly two generations before the Norman Conquest; in his zeal for his new religion he tried to suppress heathenism by legal enactments. No religion dies out with the dramatic suddenness claimed by the upholders of the Complete-Conversion theory. The constant influx of Pagans through several centuries more than counterbalanced the small number of immigrant Christians. The country must therefore have been Pagan with Christian rulers and a Christian aristocracy. A parallel case is that of Spain under the Moslems. There the rulers were of one religion, the people of another, the popular religion receiving continual reinforcements from abroad." (p. 5)

And here's some more from Murray!

"In the thirteenth century the Church opened its long drawn-out conflict with Paganism in Europe by declaring "witchcraft" to be a "sect" and heretical. It was not till the fourteenth century that the two religions came to grips. The bishop of Coventry in 1303 escaped probably because he belonged to both faiths, but the next trial was fought out to the end. In 1324 the bishop of Ossory tried Dame Alice Kyteler in his ecclesiastical court for the crime of worshipping a deity other than the Christian God. The evidence proved the truth of the accusation, which the lady apparently did not deny, but she was of too high rank to be condemned and she escaped out of the bishop's hands. Not so her followers, who paid at the stake the penalty of differing from the Church. The next step was the investigation into the Old Religion at Berne, given to the world in Nider's Formicarius. Here again the Church could seize only the poorer members, those of high rank were too powerful to be sent to their deaths and went free. The fifteenth century marks the first great victories of the Church. Beginning with the trials in Lorraine in 1408 the Church moved triumphantly against Joan of Arc and her followers in 1431, against Gilles de Rais and his coven in 1440, against the witches of Brescia in 1457. Towards the end of the century the Christian power was so well established that the Church felt that the time had come for an organised attack, and in 1484 pope Innocent VIII published his Bull against "witches." All through the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries the battle raged. The Pagans fought a gallant, though losing, fight against a remorseless and unscrupulous enemy; every inch of the field was disputed. At first victory occasionally inclined to the Pagans, but the Christian policy of obtaining influence over the rulers and law-givers was irresistible. Vae victis was also the policy of the Christians, and we see the priests of the Papacy gloating over the thousands whom they had consigned to the flames while the ministers of the Reformed Churches hounded on the administrators of the law to condemn the "devil-worshippers". What can have been the feelings with which those unhappy victims regarded the vaunted God of Love, the Prince of Peace, whose votaries condemned them to torture and death? What wonder that they clung to their old faith, and died in agony unspeakable rather than deny their God." (pp. 7-8)

All I have to add to this is one of Julian's lyrics:

"And every Sunday Sheela the Witch
Praising her god, but never explaining which"

Oh, and neither FourWinds nor myself are single!

" (thinly disguised) pagan worship went on in Christian churches."

I've given this a lot of thought myself and it's the only answer *if* sheela is The Hag (or any oter for that matter.

We've had a chat here before about ealy churches being aligned to sunrises on the patron saint's day.

As to the quote ...

She is right about Christianity coming to the people in GB. It did that everywhere ... except Ireland! Ireland is the only place on record where the Kings were converted before the populace started to follow it. The folks stuck to their own ways.

After Patrick (Ha-Ha) all the rest of the Irish saints were Irish (well most of them).

I have raised this before somewhere too - Early Irish Christianity is so quirky because the people leading the flocks were the sons/daughters of druid (type) priests or were druids themselves.

The continued hallowing of Brigid, wells (in the extreme) and bullaun stones (my favourite area of stuy right now) really does show a continuation of the old in the new. Ireland was unique until the 12th Century when Rome finally decided to interfere here. Before then the irish pretty much did what they wanted to.

I would say that Brigid (St. Brigit) is as important in Ireland as Patrick is. I would say that she was more important at one time. But that gets us nowhere with the Hag.

Maybe Sheela has nothing to do with sex. We know caves are/were considered sacred. Many begin with a vulva shaped entry. Did the pagans carve the Sheela's to help them remember who they were and pretend to enter a sacred cave as they entered the church?

In the book "In The Dark Places of Wisdom" Peter Kingsley talks about ancient Greece and the Prophet/Healer Parmenides who used caves to dream and prophesy in order to heal people/society. The pitch blackness of the cave, the silence etc. created a void between reality and nonreality. He would slip into a trance which they called incubation and for days would travel in other realms to help his people.

That satans groin site, that fourwinds supplied, with exhibitionist figures proves that practically anything is possible in regard to the christians taking pagan beliefs and twisting them to suit thier purposes.... some holy, some evil.