hmmmm - Preaching indeed.

I would be interested to hear who gives you the authority to decide another human beings personal offerings are 'detritus' and 'rubbish'?
And the presumed right to move in and 'tidy up' a location where their religious practices are taking place?

If you ever go to another part of the world, like India for example - would you take a bin bag and tidy up all the 'rubbish' offerings at their sacred sites too.
Or maybe thats different? not 'British'?

It would be very easy to see a degree of arrogance and ignorance in your post - lets hope thats not the case. But it might also be worth considering that there may be things going on that you are totally unaware of - next time you reach for the knife and binbag. Perhaps a heartfelt healing ceremony for a friend or relative with cancer (prayer rags on trees etc) ... just perhaps?

The fact the farmer cut down the thorn tree is the most disgraceful part of this. A tree that has taken years to grow in that special place and yet you sympathise with him? - curious indeed.
As for the pottery cow, where is he now ? in a land fill site?

Alfrede

Last summer,about this time, I went to Maen Llia in the Brecon Beacons. On approaching the stone I could see some whitish grains spread about it. I at first thought it was the remains of someone's barbecue discarded on the ground, which I didn't like at all, as I hate the sight of litter of any kind.
I walked around to the other side of the stone and there I saw the origin of the grains.
At the base of Maen Llia,a 12 feet tall monolith, was a heart shaped pebble, about the size of a tea plate. On the pebble was a message from a wife to her husband, telling of their love for the stone and for each other.
The whitish grains were this gents ashes. He had passed some time before and this was his wifes final tribute to him. It was quite a sobering and touching thing to come across.
This pebble stayed in it's spot mostly untouched for months, except for occasional gifts joining it, mostly flowers and even a religious pamphlet which survived for a surprisingly long time, given the rain and wind that is never far away here.
As I was studying Maen Llia and it's surroundings last summer, I kept an eye on the pebble, and I often saw people coming and going. They all noticed this pebble, and I never saw anyone show it anything but respect.
A couple of months after it showed up, I was there once more, and once again Maen Llia was surrounded by whitish grains. I went around the back of the stone and saw 2 pebbles now, side by side. The second pebble was for the gent's wife. It was put there by someone who must have been a great friend, possibly at the request of the wife, as it too had it's own dedication on it.
The 2 pebbles stayed there for a while, then one day they were gone. I don't know where they went,but I hope they were removed legitimately and respectfully.
Oddly, I grew quite fond of them and the way they had become a part of the stones history for a while. It was a bit of a shock when they dissapeared. But I was glad when they went in the end. I think their job had been done, and to stay any longer would have inevitably led to them becoming someones souvenirs, which was an end these epitaphs didn't deserve.
So in my opinion offerings are fine, I will leave flowers or more usually bird feed. But I don't think an offering should be around for too long, even when theres a story to go with it.

If you've got one monument and two (or many) groups using it you have a shared monument.

If they disagree about how it should be used (leave stuff/remove stuff) you have a conflict with no chance either side can win.

So, you need a compromise solution. If EHand NT weren't so wimpish and anxious to suck up to the spiritual groups in preference to everyone else they'd have put up notices saying what is and isn't acceptable at places which THEY are responsible for.

Don't hurt the stones. Don't take tealights and candles anywhere near them (duh!) and don't leave the following tat: (list).

Thankyou all for your thoughts and responses.

I don't want to lose the point of the thread here though.

In this case the leaving of offerings resulted in a tree being chopped down.

So, I hope we can all have the foresight and breadth of vision to take into account other people's perspectives and aim for the best possible outcome.

When we do certain things on other people's private land they might not like it and may act accordingly.

This is why I suggest that people who are into making offerings do it in a way that vanishes into thin air.

Making an offering can be an awesome thing. Ive been very moved by seeing people bear their soul in prayer. It seems to me that the most beautiful offerings are those that reveal everything and leave no trace.

Interesting to read through the comments on this topic.
Some of the responses are pretty predictable (thou shalt not ... etc.) from those unable to comprehend any deeper aspects involved.
Others show a broader tolerance and wisdom that i find heartening.

The most ironic comments are from those who reveal an open distaste for any sign of human interaction or ongoing ritual activity at these ancient ritual sites. Instead wanting them kept looking a certain way to fit their own personal view of them. This I find bizarre.
The tone of their comments usually reveal the deeper prejudices lurking behind their argument, - that other peoples personal offerings and tokens, are ‘offensive’ and the constant reference to these items
as 'rubbish' 'crap' 'tat' and ‘detritus’ in order to devalue and obscure their intended purpose. A very cheap ploy to justify their negative views on ‘those sort of people’ who ‘dump’ this stuff.
Quite unpleasant really.

With regard to the original post, after many years and much reflection, my own approach is that i would not touch or remove anything that looks like an offering or token left by another person - whatever my personal feelings towards the object. Simply, i do not consider i have the right to interfere. Especially not knowing the motivation behind such an offering.

Tut tut ... Another site where ‘those sort’ of people have tied rags to a tree, In the belief that it might help them recover from an illness.
http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/6458/clootie_well.html
get sharpening those axes.

I do still wonder what happened to the offending pottery cow left in the field at long Meg circle?

Alfrede

Oh and I had a thought. What about the wailing wall? Its stuffed to bursting point with prayersa dn offering and scraps of paper. Is it different because its a religion still in practice? Would it be different if it was in Britain and watched over by an angry farmer?

PLEASE TREAT THIS SITE WITH RESPECT & LEAVE NO LITTER OR OFFERINGS.
IF YOU FIND ANY DAMAGE OR VANDALISM PLEASE PHONE 01736-787186 OR 787522

Found on the information pages for Tregeseal Circle. Guess some people are getting up-to-date with all this offering malarkey and putting a stop to it. I wonder if people will pay any attention to the warning, as I'm sure the people who leave "offered" bits of plastic and shoelaces KNOW they're not really supposed to.

I think we should think of ourselves as owning timeshares in monuments. On that basis, they should be left spick and span when we leave.

Sorry. I've only read some bits of this, so I might be repeating.

I don't go to a lot of monuments, but I do go to one monument a lot - at least once a week - and the only 'offerings' that I (occasionally) see there are the innards of small animals, or birds - left, I assume, by a full cat.

I suspect that these may be more 'authentic to origin' than anything else mentioned here; flowers, pottery, whatever. Good morning Great Moloch ;)

Not that I suggest a TMA member should head off on a killing spree.

Here's anothe little thought, just for the sake of (no) argument.....

Would it be OK for the local Avebury churches to bedeck the stones with holly and little baby Jesus's on Xmas Eve? Presumably, since they could cite every single one of the pro-offering arguments in support. Indeed, it would be far more acceptable since they'd remove them after 12 days.

Oh gosh, you Brits make me laugh. The obvious solution to this is simple. Stop being so mamby pamby about "ownership" of these sites. Condemn them through eminent domain, with a good payment to the owners. Fence them off and charge money to visit.

Charge extra for the privilege of leaving an offering at a designated part of the site. Make it clear that such will be cleaned out in 24 or 48 hours, and disposed of reverently. Ahem.

Use the fees gathered to help maintain the site and the salaries of the semi-volunteer staff. Look at what's being done in Sardinia, much of it on a volunteer basis. That's the way to go.

And yep, it'll be "unnatural." Just like when the things were built by a bunch of people who were desperate to fight and control "Nature." You want to see natural? Go to the Paleolithic caves in the Vezere valley. Now those people were into Nature with a capital En.

So stop worrying and get cracking. Take back these sites and return them to their original purpose: enriching the community.

Your American friend,

Bucky Edgett

I guess this issue is pretty much talked out but I thought I'd mention this that I just came across, part of the Rollright Trust conditions for private events.

"Small, light portable decorations, including flowers and other greenery, may be brought to the stone circle but must not be of a form that could cause any damage and must be removed at the end of the visit."

I've written for some pagan magazines, and when I suggested an article on this topic recently, even the biggest UK one said they had written on the subject many times, usually getting a hearty response that they wouldn't dream of defiling the countryside. I'll write my own article and submit it to some and see if it can be brought up again though.

I tried writing to a couple of new age type groups on the subject, and recieved replies such as "we ARE the folk and if we do it - its a FOLK custom. DONT YOU UNDERSTAND" and "I'll have you know I'M A CHRISTIAN and entitled to contact angels any way I like". I'm not sure what kind of magazines they read or if it would be welcome, but I'll try sending an article to one or two of those too.

Obviously there's a deep psychological need that leaving offerings fits, the increase in leaving flowers at sites of tragedies is on the increase too. Perhaps people need to connect to a the spiritual world that modern life makes one feel increasingly divorced from, but older cultures did the same thing too. Perhaps its a feeling of being afraid then, mother nature is turning into a bitch and we feel the need of guardians from human madness more and more as well.

Perhaps the only way to get the message across in the modern world would be to open a stall and scream "get your biodegradeable offerings here" and charge a fortune for them - the mentality of commercialism being what it is. (I wanted my offering to be bigger, better, faster, more - fine - make it bigger priced, better suited, faster to degrade, and more aesthetic - buy this 5mm square rice paper miniature blessing from me for a £10 ).

I'm descending into a rant so I'll stop now.

http://archives.starbulletin.com/2007/04/20/news/story09.html

(So far as I'm aware cooked pigs (or maybe raw hedgehogs) are the only things for which there is any archaeological evidence suggesting they are appropriate for leaving as offerings at British megalithic monuments.....)