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If you click on Mass Dials to the left of this page http://www.sundialsoc.org.uk/
and find Figure 2, there's a picture that's worth discussing in the context of Rock Art. Quite simply, could the "tail" on some cup and rings be an event marker – the position of a shadow cast by a wooden gnomon inserted into the central hole at a particular time of day and time of year?

I've never seen any rock art in the flesh so please accept this as a humble suggestion, not the Answer to everything (which is how it ought to be!).

I guess, for this to be a possibility, tails on horizontal panels shouldn't point South and ones on vertical panels shouldn't point upwards, mostly. Do any of you who know about these things know if there's a statistical tendency for the tails to point in a particular way?

Quite separately, here's my further musing about rock art, which I've wondered about for years. Could it be a funerary marker? Since bold claims without back up are irritating, here's my possible circumstantial evidence –

The markings span millennia. For a belief or practice to last so long shouldn't it have something concrete or practical to sustain it? What more enduring and unchanging than the fact that people die?

The earliest markings date from nomadic times AND tend to be on prominent outcrops, with good views and near trackways. If you're on a journey, far from home, and uncle Albert dies… what nicer and more practical than to bury him there and then, and commemorate him at the next rocky necropolis you come to (very few burials are found round rock art panels).

Later panels tend to be down in the valleys – could this be a continuation of the tradition but connected with settled village lifestyles?

From what I've seen, cup and rings of similar age tend to have an etiquette about them, whereby you don't encroach on other marks, whereas there seems no such reticence about encroaching upon marks that are clearly far older. This seems to be much as we act in churchyards, where very old graves are no longer so sacrosanct.

Could the grouped patterns and connecting lines between individual motifs be expressions of family connections? Does such grouping tend to occur in the later, settled period panels, when whole families are more likely to be commemorated, and is it rarer in the nomadic period panels?

Could this analysis of funerary markers explain why panels were used – sometimes in "edited" form and usually facing down, to cover graves? If the tradition was ending, and you'd opted to have a marked grave, might it be appropriate to have your family tree, that was no longer going to be added to, buried with you? What date are the graves that show this feature? Late?

Back to the initial speculation about the tails being gnomon shadows. Could the tails be permanent marks of the day and time when uncle Albert's essence passed into the rock? Some even show ladders…

Well there yer go. Hypothesis and possible evidence, the TMA way.

"Could the grouped patterns and connecting lines between individual motifs be expressions of family connections?"

That was my guess/feeling about cup and ring marks in general. Hmmmm...

>could the "tail" on some cup and rings be an event marker – the position of a shadow cast by a wooden gnomon inserted into the central hole at a particular time of day and time of year?<

I've also thought along these lines. In effect the rock becomes a calendar or diary of events. Exact time and dates can be recorded according to where the shadow falls.

Sticking point is how would the length of the rod used to cast the shadow be kept constant over generations. Perhaps each rock or outcrop had a thin key stone that was kept onsite 'so to speak' which would always be used when the rock was incised.

Interesting hypothesis ,don't know how it could be tested though.

:-)

Fascinating hypothesis Nigel.

I know next to nothing about rock art and look forward to seeing how this thread develops :-)

> Quite simply, could the "tail" on some cup and rings be an event marker – the position of a shadow cast by a wooden
> gnomon inserted into the central hole at a particular time of day and time of year?

if that was the case, I don't think the cups would have "smoothed off" edges, they'd have very straight vertical edges and would be deeper, to hold up the stake in the centre

also, what about sites with multiple cup-marks around a central large cup-mark? I know a theory can't be applied to ALL rock art though

Cheers
Andy

nigelswift, I know of many of these dials or whatever they are?
I dont believe not having seen any rock art should make the slightest difference.
I feel that the recording and photography on here, is to such a high standard, that you almost feel as though you are next to the stones.
I am not trying to butter anyone up or anything, just stating what I feel, and the reason these marks were left is open to all to discuss, because the research has been so good.
I asked on an earlier thread, if it would be possible in future to note the relevant position of the stone and its carvings, in relation to its bearing, and to the relevant view, most likely that the person carving it would have been looking at, not easy I grant, but what you have brought up was exactly the reason that I was suggesting this be done.
K.

Like you, Nigel - I am a long way from any cup and ring rock art and know nothing about it. However, I have seen an awful lot of it coming on to the Portal and have often asked contributors if they have any theories about them. The answer is nearly always no. I like the way you have put your tentative case. It seems to me that we have a major enigma in British rock art and it does seem worthy of concentrated in-depth study. I understand that the rock art of northern Britain is similar to that of Galicia in Spain. Can we see other cultural links between the two areas ?

In response to your ideas:
The first question I would ask with regard to the gnomon idea is a simple one. Do such designs ever occur on north facing rock where the sun never shines? The second question is to ask if the same sort of design is ever found within structures - again where the sun cannot reach. If either were to be the case, then that would suggest that the gnomon idea is a non-starter.

Assuming that these designs are not purely decorative - ie art for art's sake - can we assume a ritual/funerary purpose?

Considering for a moment the possibibility of a non-ritual use - could they be direction indicators, maps (of communities or barrow cemeteries) or even star charts?

To me they suggest a language or numbering/tallying system. Has anyone systematically transcribed the designs and looked for similarities and differences? That would be the way to begin to decipher unknown hieroglyphs, pictographs or alphabets. Before anyone jumps on me from a great height - I am not suggesting that cups and rings are secret writings! I just point out that the discipline used to decipher ancient texts and modern codes might be useful. That is to catalogue all that you can and then assemble like with like and separate the dis-similars. Then you look for repetitions and patterns ie does the same symbol occur in the same sort of place in the same aspect? Does the surrounding natural and man-made landscape relate to that perceived similarity?

Probably the enormous library of rock art photos on TMA and the Portal should provide sufficient raw data to begin to compare designs and see if anything begins to emerge. I doubt if the study of individual examples will ever lead to an understanding.

http://www.megalithomania.com/show/image/1059

Maybe the earliest sundial there is? There's a similar stone on Patrickstown Hill at Loughcrew at Cairn X (I think). However, this stone doesn't face south and the one at Loughcrew is inside a tomb.


The stone in this photo http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/43664 is also thought to be a sundial. There is a cupmark in the upper surface of the stone and a large curved groove. I really should have a better photo of it somewhere.

Blagged from Rock Art in the British Landscape
http://groups.msn.com/rockartinthebritishlandscape/home.msnw

In his book "The Prehistoric Rock Art of Galloway & The Isle of man", Morris gives 104 explanations (some written as a statement!) and gives them his "personal assessment of the probability that each idea is correct" through marks out of ten. Since a lot of references are made to this book, all the explanations will be given in the same sequence as in the book. Morris' Rating: 10 = a certainty or nearly so, 5 = reasonably sensible idea which may or may not be true, 0 = quite impossible.

Burials (10), Standing stones (9), Alignment markers (10), Astronomy (9), Re-use in burial (9), Early prospectors (8), Early prospectors aids (8), Belief in after-live (8), Religious and magical (7), Uniform religious or magical significance (6), Breasts (4), Mother Goddess (4), Eyes (4), Phallic symbols (3), Fertility symbols; 'sperm entering the egg'(2), Fertility rites (3), Marks of sexual prowess (0), Circumcision ceremony (1), Sex symbols (0), Sun symbol (6), Sun God (5), Baal (5), Water divining (0), Mixing Vessels for bronze (2), Mixing vessels for pigments (4), Quantity measures (1), Freemasons 'earliest' marks (0), Sacred food & wine holders (5), Fertility rites (Indian) (0), Copies of worm casts (2), Copies of tree rings (2), Copies of ripples from a stone thrown into a pool (2), Druids (5), Use by Druids (5), Blood sacrifice (4), Code (5), Water time-signals (1), Clocks (1), Pictographs or hieroglyphs (6), Early writing (0), Messages from outer space (0), Megalithis inch (9), All measured in or founded on megalithic inches (0), Right angle triangles (9), Equilateral triangles (6), Code (1), Spirals are two-centre half-circles or ellipses(7), Different races made them (7), Bonfire ritual site markers (6), Search for food (2), Seed production (1), Early pilgrimage marks (1), Dye-transfer moulds (6), Metal moulds (0), Maps of the countryside (1), Building plans (0), Star Maps (1), Emblems (5), Tattooists' patterns(5), Decorations (5), Doodles (2), An elderly man's screen (2), Boundery Markers (5), Route markers (5), Tribal convention commemorators (3), Mithras worship (0), Shields (0), Gaming tables (3), Marbels (3), Anular brooches (3), Animistic carvings (0), Primitive lamp bases (5), Water worship (5), Cattle worshuip (2), Marks of piety (5), Re-use of a long dead superstition (5), Monuments of the dead (1), Natural (0), Hidden treasure (0), Plans for megalithis structures (0), Plans for laying out mazes (0), Field ploughing plans (0), Oath marks (5), Victory Marks (1), Masons'marks (0), Adder Lairs (0), Knife-sharpening marks (0), An early form of music notation (0), Tuning device (0), Early astronomers's night memoranda (2), Birth, growth, life and death symbol (5), A locked-up force (0), The stone circle builders carved them (8), Healing Magic (5), Casts for making bronze (3), Sea Goddess worship (1), Mirror (5), Wells (0), Child carvings (0)

"The earliest markings date from nomadic times AND tend to be on prominent outcrops"
The only way we have of dating RA at the moment is by association and the earliest in the UK is found inside passage graves and funerary monuments . Although the prominent outcrops may be older we just have no way of knowing that.

" (very few burials are found round rock art panels)." Very few panels have been excavated , but when they have they do not have burials .Although see above . One certain association RA has is with burials and death .

Could a different point of view be expressed?
What is a sun dial?
How many suns does a sun dial watch?
If the lines that a dowser detects are those eminating from suns ?
If a stone or a building was aligned to say 90 degrees from north, and if that alignment matched the nearest sun, then any other suns alignments could be expressed against that one , as the most common one and best understood.
If these lines all crossed at a point at or near the building, and as the person who was responsible for constructing that building, and had perhaps used those lines to aid in the construction, and you felt that others should know how and why you built in that spot and in that shape etc, wouldnt he leave a drawing or markings , showing these lines etc.
K.

It will be interesting to see what comes out of the Northumberland & Durham Rock Art Project, because its not just logging the motifs, its also looking at RA in the context of how it fits in the landscape. The recording document is comprehensive to say the least (7 Pages) & the type of stuff being recorded is:

Panel dimensions, orientation & aspect
Type of rock; erratic, bedrock, part of structure
Location: hill top, valley, hillside, shore etc
Proximity to water:
Is the water: river, spring, sea etc.
Views from RA
Type of rock
Whether the rocks got fissures / visible bedding
Components of the rock; quartz, feldspar, mica
Grain size
Motifs
Sketches of the RA
Scale sketches of immediate area, including other monuments, water, rocks with natural markings or fissures.
Current condition & threats to the RA

If the data is pulled together & analysed properly, I'll be absolutely stunned & saddened for that matter if some new theories don't emerge.

Anyone know if there is anything similair to the quartz hydration method (recently developed for dating older old quartz atrefacts) that has or is being developed for dating the age of cut stone?

???
:-)

Nigelswift, from a very practical view point,
The mass dials on church doorways, are normally south facing, so many consider them sundials.
Some though, and these sun dial people know this, are on the north faces ?
At a church in Warks, is one of these, armed with a pathfinder map of that area, I took the readings of the angles of the lines from the church sun dial, transferred them onto the map and drew them out.
I was instantly an Alfred Watkins fan.
All the lines taken from the sun dial led along footpaths to all the adjoining churchs, and then if you carry them onward, to other churchs, hill tops, in one case a place called the rollright stones.
If like me , you are an oddball, and can dowse, and from the relics of an old cross in the same church yard, you were to note down all the angles thet you dowse around that spot, and would you believe it?,
thay are the same angles, give you the same lines, send you down the same footpaths, would you consider this a mere coincidence?
If you did the self same thing, until you are blue in the face, at other churchs, and found the exact same, would you then consider it a coincidence?
This is a fabulous thread nigel, I have noted how carefully you started it,
If you were the priest of many country churchs, it would be easy to mark on these which church you were going to next, along a leafy footpath.
If you were a hunter, thousands of years ago, how would you have said to the missus, were you had gone?
K.