Saying the same thing

Littlestone Jan 3, 2006 01:09:43

In a post dated 17 December 2003* Jane writes of the Winterbourne Bassett circle, "We could clearly make out the field to the west in which Winterbourne Bassett stone circle lies in the distance. Everything here is interconnected."

The Winterbourne Bassett Circle has been niggling away at me for years now and, with the exception of the single standing stone on the north-west corner of the T-junction (erected within the last ten years or so), I tend to agree with her. Everything here <i>is</i> connected but connected in what way? Was the Winterbourne Bassett Circle a local 'chapel' lying in the shadow of the great Avebury 'cathedral' or just another corral for livestock brought in from the surrounding downland (or was it perhaps a combination of both?).

One of the puzzling things about Avebury is the number of churches in its immediate area. There's the church of St James at Avebury (with the interesting serpent-subduing figure on its font) but also, within a few miles of Avebury, there are the churches of Winterbourne Monkton, Winterbourne Bassett, Cliff Pypard and East Kennet - at least two of those churches have sarsens embedded in their foundations and one (Saint Mary Magdalene at Winterbourne Monkton) has the famous 'goddess' on its font. A little further out from Avebury at the Alton Priors and Pewsey churches one will find even more impressive examples of sarsens incorporated into the church foundations.

All this seems to be saying the same thing - ie that within the Avebury complex there is the suggestion that 'pagan' practices were still sufficiently predominant during the first millennium of the Christian era for the Church to feel it necessary to stamp its authority there by building more churches than were actually necessary. That being so, it might lead one to conclude that, within the Avebury area, there may still be remnants of those ancient 'pagan' practices tucked away in local folklore and memory... (did I just discover what to do with the rest of my life? :-)

* http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/19581

nigelswift Jan 3, 2006 07:56:07

Replying to Littlestone

"...within the Avebury area, there may still be remnants of those ancient 'pagan' practices tucked away in local folklore and memory... (did I just discover what to do with the rest of my life? :-)"

That would be a great way to spend the rest of your life. But, given that the the evidence for interconnection at Avebury might lie just below the surface, and is there for the finding, wouldn't it be better to invest in some geofizz equipment? I'll go halves with you.

It seems that wherever the professionals look they find stuff, yet mostly they haven't looked. Imagine what we might find! We could spend our declining years just wandering around doing geophysical prospecting and becoming famous. Last of the Summer Wine with balls....

(Better still if NT tried to tell us we couldn't do it on their land. What a delicious court case that would be.)

moss Jan 3, 2006 08:18:44

Replying to Littlestone

I'm not sure that christianity stamped its foot, its just that the early monks went round and placed their sermons within the old pagan grounds. When you come to think of it, they were pretty brave. A whole batch of them came via the Bristol channel and Wales, and when you look at early monastic settlements - hundreds of young men and some women joined... Why? second sons who could'nt inherit perhaps, a new wave of optimism that christianity would offer a better chance to the otherworld...
The pagan stones were the enemy, and yet their stories were interwoven into the myths of early christianity its a fascinating interface.... How many anglo saxon cemeteries are near the old stones for instance?

Rhiannon Jan 3, 2006 08:51:34

Replying to Littlestone

I've just been reading Pollard and Gillings' 'Avebury' (2004) and I think they're implying that in Saxon and early medieval times the circle seems to have been pretty much ignored. That is, it was just seen as some ancient old earthworks, not sacred, not a pagan threat, just a bit of landscape history. When it was mentioned in the Domesday book (the first written evidence we have) it says 'Rainbald the priest holds the church of Avreberie to which belongs 2 hides. It is worth 40s." as though the henge wasn't even worth mentioning. Even when it was called 'Waledich' it implies just a ditch like a hillfort, not anything spooky or magical.

(P and G have an interesting discussion of the 'stone burial /destruction' issue as well.)

Besides, on the subject of churches - surely you could say the same (that there's a high density) about any number of places - most tiny villages in England have a church. If you go to Norwich you can't turn down a street without tripping over one.

And you're bound to use whatever stone there is to hand so if there are big sarsens just begging to be used, you'd use them would you not? They were just hanging about in the fields. I don't see that sticking them in the foundations implies any notion of putting paganism in its place, necessarily. One wouldn't make that conclusion in places other than Avebury?

(just a few thoughts)

BuckyE Jan 3, 2006 14:00:01

Replying to Littlestone

Loie and I have seen several examples of churches incorporating older materials or sites. In Brittany: a church built on a hilltop, with a small megalith a few yards outside the front, in line with the path to a stone enclosed spring; a church with a small crypt that was originally a neolithic dolmen. In Paris: a church with two excavated Roman Era pillars inside its front wall. In Italy, near Rome: a church built on the foundation of a Roman era temple of Diana.

Some of these few random examples could be chalked up to practicality, others don't seem to be so amenable to such an explanation. Hmmm.

cropredy Jan 4, 2006 19:09:50

Replying to Littlestone

If You would consider the findings of someone that has spent the last six months wandering around churchs, here and in France.
I find no churchs within former circles, many adjacent, most sevaral hundred yards away.
All have the same findings that I find in long barrows.
To visualise, think of the native American serpent sites, then imagine a circle at one end and a long barrow at the other.
Water is a vital key in the position of the church.
K.