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Howdo mateys,
Bearing in mind what has happened to the Pike of Sickle, how much information, regarding the location of specific stone working sites, should we be posting on TMA?
The axe quarries and production sites are extremely vunerable and my fear is that if we start posting locations of specific sites then we may expose these sites to ‘souvenir’ hunters who may plunder and destroy these delicate sites in search of roughouts and chippings.
I know what I’m suggesting here is a form of self-sensorship and sensorship is generally not a good thing but if we are to give a damn about these wonderful places I think it is necessary.
What’cha reckon?

fitz

For a long time we didn't have a grid reference on the pollisher for that very reason. Does it have one now? I know its location is elsewhere on the web.

I understand the concern, but anyone wanting details of where the various stone axe quarries are only needs to go onto the Archaeology Data Service homepage, or trawl the internet. Anyone determined to search for an axe roughout, or any other souvenir at any other site, will do so, regardless of whether it features on TMA.
I think TMA provides a good source of information on what to expect at a site, and it'd be a shame to lose that due to fear of what people may do once there.

Cheers,
TE.

As I've mentioned before, the archaeologists working on southwest Native American sites mostly no longer publish specific locations. The problems with looting are immense and, given the isolation of the sites, intractable. Much like poaching on African wildlife preserves.

It wouldn't seem unreasonable to me to post pictures and information about a site, with its "general" location (a county, perhaps) without its exact location. I know you guys want to get to these places, and if Loie and I lived in the UK, we might, too. But for us, seeing the pics and reading is sure better than nothing, and is plenty of information for amateurs.

Perhaps some discrimination based on the vulnerability of a site might apply? A nice notice could be given on the page (pages) for easily disturbed sites, something along the lines of "Concern for protection of this particularly vulnerable site leads us to omit irs specific location. Thanks for your understanding. (Geocachers unwelcome.)"

That other places are less than responsible isn't a reason to be so one's self. Is it?

Whilst I participate in the secrecy, I really don't think this is a viable long term way of protecting the site. I've been concerned about the axe factories for some time. Just as there are detectorists that think they own our heritage, we also have a very selfish breed of lithic hunter that:

1. Collects as much as they can (The chap who decided to fieldwalk Ladybridge two months before Tarmac did their survey for example)

2. Refuses to report their finds (the chap that brought me 4,000 flint artefacts and disappeared sharpish when I started asking where he got them and who he reported them to).

3. Hunts down sites likely to be rich in artefacts, does not care about scheduled status.

I know of at least three people that fit this description and visit Thornborough often. Thornborough is still not that well known a site, I've seen many fieldwalkers around Avebury, but notice very few finds recorded on PAS.

Is it not time we started making more of a fuss about this sort of thing? Surely, keeping stum is just allowing the problem to continue.

I guess in order to shout about a thing, you need to offer a solution. Here's a few suggestions: More of a straw man than any serious conviction on my part.

1. Make all buried historic artefacts older than 1,000 years property of the crown.

2. Create a new level of protection - historic landscape - a wider comfort zone around scheduled monuments that can take into account the landscape setting of the monument.

2. Make searching for such artefacts within the historic landscape illegal unless a licence has been granted.

>The axe quarries and production sites are extremely vunerable...

I know what you mean Fitz, and share the concerns about lithic hunters. I dunno if there is ever likely to be a watertight solution, though the ">1000yrs = crown property" idea BN posits below appeals immensely at first glance.

A couple of things that strike me about Pike O Stickle/Langdale, sort of cancel each other out when it comes to the argument of posting details on the web.

The first thing is that a lot (the majority?) of the damage was done by scree-running rather than treasure hunting, so highlighting the location, the nature and the significance of the site would help protect from that kind of damage, assuming people are prepared to listen and act with respect. In fact, is that not happening at Pike O Stickle? People surely don't still go scree-jumping there these days do they?

The second thing is that as Langdale axes were obviously held as so special, it gives artefacts added value when compared against a bit of scraggy mesolithic flint. This argues against highlighting the location.

It's a problem though, so should be discussed and solutions implemented asap (assuming solutions can be found). It certainly shouldn't just be ignored. Further down the valley in question, the highlighting of the potential problems facing the carvings at Chapel Stile has resulted in a constructive dialogue between interested parties, which is vastly more preferable than just hoping the problem will sort itself out.

Overall, too hard a question for this lad to answer, but in absence of nowt better, I'd hedge bets and plump for posting info, but keeping locations vague, maybe in fieldnotes a heavy emphasis on the dangerous nature of these treacherously slippy places where many greedy treasure hunters may have fallen to their doom, their remains having never been found, due to the inaccessibility of the site.

are not all sites vunerable?

Leave your jack boots by the back door Fritz.

mike

Fitz,

I might've been on dodgy ground when visiting the Pike of Stickle site, in more ways than one. Trawling t'internet tonight, and came up with this, which I missed first time around:-

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/cumbria/3608645.stm

Don't know what came of it all though.

I hope it's noted by all that the site on the Cumbria link is referred to as "Great Langdale". I'd best shut-up on that though. (;^/)

Regards,
TE.

One thing to consider in this is how much education it's LIKELY the general public would glean from visiting the smaller sites, the more fragile places. Education is a wonderful goal, but Loie and I have seen plenty of people wandering around places that are elaborately signed, not bothering to read; telling their kids to climb on the rocks to pose for pictures; dropping trash; walking or climbing on things they obviously should not; learning little or nothing about either history or respect for it.

You folks are concerned enthusiasts. You're a tiny minority. Trade the location of new places strictly among yourselves and, if you like, with the "pro's." Post pictures and field notes with explanations of why you're withholding the specific locations, heavily emphasizing that you feel the need to protect the sites from outright vandals, looters and the generally disrespectful. Make this problem an issue. Because it is. Perhaps the relative lack of saleable material at your sites affords them some protection against the looting that goes on constantly in the U.S., but the principal remains the same: genuine concern in the face of demonstrated irresponsibility.

Send us daytrippers to places that are monitored and protected. We'll get as much education--historical and conservationist--as we can handle at the biggies and midsizers. If it happens that some of us become enthusiasts, we'll be here eventually and make it into the circle of respectful folks that share the precise locations.

When it comes down to it...we are all adults who have a love of stones, surely we are, and can be the responsible ones?..if we don't look after our history, who will?....

Very glad this subject was raised as when I have puzzled out how to post pictures on this damn machine ,I will show the large stone in Warickshire with its tapering hole thro,but not its location.
It has taken many years to gain acess to this site and there are aprox 50 dear roaming around and though I dont fully believe in private land You have to face reality if these sites are to be fully protected and understood