Tombo's weblogs​…

close
more_vert
Steve Gray S
Steve Gray Sep 25, 2003 22:50:10
Replying to morfe

I'm not sure I fully understood all of that, but I think I agreed with some of it. What I do have a problem with is the way science seems to have been branded as reductionist and nihilistic. I think this is a very narrow cliche and one with which I cannot agree. There's so much more to science that reductionism. To me science is as much holistic as it is atomistic. It is a quest for knowledge and should rightly embrace the whole of nature, including the emotional and spiritual aspects. I regard a desire to know what is currently unknown to be an eminently healthy pusuit.

I have quoted the saying "There's no reality, only perception", but I don't interpret this in a nihilistic way. I view the saying as refering to the divergence of perception between individuals at an emotional level. In this sense reality is not an absolute, it depends on your point of view.

One person may look at a Ferrari and perceive it as a highly desirable vehicle, whereas another may perceive it to be phallic emblem, a boy's toy. In nihilism the Ferrari is merely a figment of everyone's perception. I cannot hold with this view because the collective experience is essentially the same, only the interpretation differs. The Ferrari exists at a physical level for everyone, but each individual weaves it into their own world view in a different way.

If someone told me that the Ferrari was a boat then we could test his perception by launching it into water and seeing if it fufilled the function of a boat, which it would not; and what a waste of a good Ferrari that would be. We could therefore conclude that his perception was flawed. This is what I mean when I challenge somone to justify their assertions. On the other hand if someone said that the Ferrari was "poetry on wheels", I would conclude that he was speaking metaphorically and might choose to agree or not, but I would not expect him to substantiate his view.

I think where I differ from some of the other opinions expressed in these threads is that I do not regard having an alternative perception as being a free ticket to spout a load of unsubstantiated crap as though it were fact.

N nigelswift
nigelswift Sep 25, 2003 23:42:24
Replying to Steve Gray

It comes down to this though: open minded and holistic as science may be, it still conceives of boundaries, related to itself, either conceptually or by practical proof.

That is a scientific personal perception, but alternative perceptions can't be assessed by such a measure since it will always invalidate them as being beyond the boundary.

But logic might do it (!). Doesn't it hint that the universe is more likely to be bigger than rationality, not co-extensive with it?

(May I add, I've spent 50 years not agreeing with this, but hell, we all make mistakes!)

M morfe
morfe Sep 26, 2003 00:03:15
Replying to Steve Gray

Steve, I think maybe you've got me wrong (it's not diffficult!)

I actually love scientific enquiry,and my point about science 'becoming' nature was a positive point, and we share the same 'anti-closed mind' sentiments I think. Science is an incredible creative process, not just there to 'explain away', 'cos labelling things can negate them, and forget that we are in a cosmic flux at grass roots, and the participatory role of experiment and observation is a process that causes change also. Something reductionist science and especially biologists has/have largely failed to address.

In short I'm for discovering more, not less, but I can't honestly see how far science can expect to go if it doesn't begin to apply Goethean-strength observation regarding cause and effect, and the most important of any consideration, before application, is to ask "then what?" at least 20 times.

I feel the urgent need for quantitive, analytical science to work with the science of wholeness (as per Goethe) both being true, and both being non-comprehensive on their own. In adopting this approach we can come to know and understand more inclusively. The whole not being the sum of it's parts etc.

The will to power is the essence of nihilism, someone once said. It's true!