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morfe M
morfe Sep 25, 2003 03:09:59
Replying to FourWinds

"I believe we will find all the causes eventually."

Faith is the outward manifestation of a closed mind!

Logical positivism and reductionism in an expanding and two-way conscious reality is a mystery to me! No that's me being sensationalist, what I mean is, reducing everything to data doesn't help us understand everything. It's been said (and I believe it) that if science is to progress beyond the endless grinding mill of non-participatory cynicism then it will naturally turn a wide circle in and come again to holistic study, and exciting possibilities. We may even discover other words for dreamtime, or reincarnation, this example is purely speculative and non-facetious, but what I'm again clumsily trying to say is that (forget all the Megarak/New Age crap that's all stereotypical pap) is that the desire to discover will always fight against the desire to atomise and be damned. And just as creation leads us like a carrot, so discovery will be a creative process always. The mystery is forever, that's why it has us in it's grip. I can't see the mystery without also being the mystery. Cognitive psychology, physics and biology will one day reside together in holistic science, resemble a hyper-techno version of witchcraft. And there'll still be cries of 'burn the witch'! I'll bet my creation-crazy ass that Goethe was right.

This is an excerpt of an essay regarding progressive deanthropomorphization in science, it's a short seven pages long and leads us on into the great modern mystery: That science is really trying to 'become' nature.

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=cache:pXpR7iRgdegJ:www.waldorflibrary.org/Journal_Articles/Rb4205.pdf+goethe+reductionism&hl=en&ie=UTF-8

M morfe
morfe Sep 25, 2003 03:11:39
Replying to morfe

Ah shit. Sorry about the long link screwing with the scrolling thang, I invested some time in that passage so feel worthy including it without the above link:

"I believe we will find all the causes eventually."

Faith is the outward manifestation of a closed mind!

Logical positivism and reductionism in an expanding and two-way conscious reality is a mystery to me! No that's me being sensationalist, what I mean is, reducing everything to data doesn't help us understand everything. It's been said (and I believe it) that if science is to progress beyond the endless grinding mill of non-participatory cynicism then it will naturally turn a wide circle in and come again to holistic study, and exciting possibilities. We may even discover other words for dreamtime, or reincarnation, this example is purely speculative and non-facetious, but what I'm again clumsily trying to say is that (forget all the Megarak/New Age crap that's all stereotypical pap) is that the desire to discover will always fight against the desire to atomise and be damned. And just as creation leads us like a carrot, so discovery will be a creative process always. The mystery is forever, that's why it has us in it's grip. I can't see the mystery without also being the mystery. Cognitive psychology, physics and biology will one day reside together in holistic science, resemble a hyper-techno version of witchcraft. And there'll still be cries of 'burn the witch'! I'll bet my creation-crazy ass that Goethe was right.

This is an excerpt of an essay regarding progressive deanthropomorphization in science, it's a short seven pages long and leads us on into the great modern mystery: That science is really trying to 'become' nature.

S Steve Gray
Steve Gray Sep 25, 2003 22:50:10
Replying to morfe

I'm not sure I fully understood all of that, but I think I agreed with some of it. What I do have a problem with is the way science seems to have been branded as reductionist and nihilistic. I think this is a very narrow cliche and one with which I cannot agree. There's so much more to science that reductionism. To me science is as much holistic as it is atomistic. It is a quest for knowledge and should rightly embrace the whole of nature, including the emotional and spiritual aspects. I regard a desire to know what is currently unknown to be an eminently healthy pusuit.

I have quoted the saying "There's no reality, only perception", but I don't interpret this in a nihilistic way. I view the saying as refering to the divergence of perception between individuals at an emotional level. In this sense reality is not an absolute, it depends on your point of view.

One person may look at a Ferrari and perceive it as a highly desirable vehicle, whereas another may perceive it to be phallic emblem, a boy's toy. In nihilism the Ferrari is merely a figment of everyone's perception. I cannot hold with this view because the collective experience is essentially the same, only the interpretation differs. The Ferrari exists at a physical level for everyone, but each individual weaves it into their own world view in a different way.

If someone told me that the Ferrari was a boat then we could test his perception by launching it into water and seeing if it fufilled the function of a boat, which it would not; and what a waste of a good Ferrari that would be. We could therefore conclude that his perception was flawed. This is what I mean when I challenge somone to justify their assertions. On the other hand if someone said that the Ferrari was "poetry on wheels", I would conclude that he was speaking metaphorically and might choose to agree or not, but I would not expect him to substantiate his view.

I think where I differ from some of the other opinions expressed in these threads is that I do not regard having an alternative perception as being a free ticket to spout a load of unsubstantiated crap as though it were fact.