It’s unlikely – in the extreme – that anyone would happen to simply ‘chance’ upon this diminutive stone circle, set just beyond the north-eastern tip of Llyn Cwmffynnon, an upland mountain lake acting as temporary repository for the (substantial) run-off of the towering 3,000ft plus crags of Glyder Fach and Fawr. To my knowledge not even Burl, the man himself, has highlighted this stone circle, so kudos must go to the wondrous people at Coflein.... and to TSC for passing the info on. Although the site is not as obscure as a glance at the 1:25k OS map of the area might suggest – this is, after all, at the heart of central Snowdonia’s prime walking country – the same map depicts a tiny lake more or less where the monument sits, a satellite frozen in orbit around the impossibly evocative source of the Nant Gwryd. To be honest this is a bit of an exaggeration.... but not significantly so since the landscape is very wet indeed. Suffice to say, then, that only someone seeking the vibe, that ‘essence’ of the hills which a man with my command of the English language will never be able to adequately define, should make a pilgrimage here. Pilgrimage? The word invokes images of religious devotion, blind faith. Leaving one’s brain at the counter. Hell no. Guess I should clarify I feel no ‘supernatural’ presence at these sites. Just overwhelming wonder at the Super Natural world. Yeah, the whole is most definitely greater than the sum of its cold, soggy, misty parts. However you most certainly need your brain to fit the bits together.
My visit today was prompted by the all too recurrent curse of every visitor to the UK uplands... a low cloud base. But there you are. Where would we be without ethereal vapours to obscure the stage of the age of legend, to act upon the primeval instincts embedded deep within the human mind... yeah, the very mists of time itself? The approach to the ‘circle is suitably dramatic, ascending the right hand bank of the thundering outflow of Llyn Cwmffynnon back to its source, fleeting glimpses of grey – nay, black – crags materialising above only adding to the sense of drama. Eventually the lake shore comes into view.... at a prominent stile look for a distant rock colonised by the only tree within the cwm.... the circle is located a little to the left of this line of sight, set before a craggy section of the lake’s shore within DEEP marsh. Needless to say I walk on by, oblivious, drawn to the clear water’s edge... before finally placing myself within the landscape. But then I would suggest a circuit of this wondrous mountain tarn is a given. It would be rude not to.
None of the orthostats of the stone circle are large. But then what’s new in Wales? The encircling crags, their height if anything emphasised by the obscuring mist, so completely dominate the site as to engender a feeling of mild claustrophobia. Yeah, there can be no pretension here. I count five stones still a’standing, albeit within their own personal pools, three more fallen (at least)... plus two (?) lying within. Not so sure about the latter, since the surrounding landscape is liberally ‘sprinkled’ with rock and one may be naturally ‘placed’, so to speak. As you would expect beneath Wales’ rockiest mountains. Hanging out here is not easy – for obvious reasons – but I have no choice. The thought suddenly arises.... I’ve walked in North Wales for over 20 years. Thought I knew it like the back of my hand. How wrong can you be?
So why here? Why erect your ‘circle in a spot that must (surely?) have always been subject to the most extreme vagaries of the climate in these parts? One answer may be not that obvious today... that of the elegant, sculptured summit of Crib Goch which would dominate the skyline to the approx west if not for the low cloud. Another could be the positionning near a river source, the very definition of life on this planet? To be fair the latter seems to be a recurring theme encountered during my upland wanderings in Wales.
P.S. – Central Snowdonia has adopted a policy of very much biting the hand that feeds in recent years... to my understanding much against the wishes of locals ... by imposing excessive parking charges in some areas. The laybys near Pen-y-Gwryd are covered by these draconian measures, so I would recommend parking a little further down the road toward Capel Curig.
Helpful directions, cheers. Glad to have found this one on Coflein. When you say "DEEP marsh", could you expand? Are we talking walking boots and hope, rather than waders or a submersible?
Wellingtons would be ideal since it's not that much of a climb... but I could never wear them with my feet. I got away with lined boots, gaiters and waterproof socks. Take a 'sit mat' though.
By happy coincidence I got some gaiters for my birthday, but they appear to require the assistance of a circus strongman to get on to my boots. It may have to be boots and hope! I have wellies but they're not really comfortable for walking anywhere much in.
Take 'em off and wade. Good practice for Pumlumon....
You don't sound convinced , and I'm not surprised . It doesn't look too good from the pics the the description doesn't make it seem any more likely . Fortuitous cicles in rocky places have been come and gone over the years .
What does it have going for it , apart from K. Laws from Engineering Archaeology Services who thinks it's genuine but doesn't give any reason ?
Fantastic fieldnotes Gladman, you really bring to life the essence of the site, and have certainly inspired me to seek it out.
It's like someone's put up a few stones in a circle and said lets see if those nutters visit this one even though it's in a bog, i'm stone circle mad, but even i don't feel the pull to this one [i say that but probably would if i was passing].
Thanks Ravenfeather. More photos and on-site opinion would be more than welcome since - unfortunately - it seems I have failed to do this site justice. Not for want of trying, believe me. For what it's worth, I am as happy as healthy reasonable doubt - pending confirmation (or otherwise) by excavation - will allow that this is an authentic prehistoric monument. Primarily I can not see any credible reason why any person(s) would have seen fit to construct a folly where no one passing by would ever be likely to see it. It just doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. To be honest the assumption is far more ludicrous than that of a prehistoric community erecting their monument in what may - or may not - have been marshland. Particularly since it is my understanding that prehistoric ritual associations with water are pretty well subject to mainstream acceptance... consequently my initial doubts were based upon the fact that I'd been to the cwm a number of times before and, avoiding the marsh, walked on by. However I walked on by this time as well, despite possessing the co-ordinates. The hills affect me greatly. I admit that. But I was actively looking!
The 'circle sits in a 'no man's land' between the lake shore and one of the paths to Glyder Fach, perhaps significantly near the outflow, and is very difficult to spot from any distance. In my opinion this satisfactorily explains why it was not identified before K Laws. Simply put, no one was looking or had opportunity to chance across it and make the connection. The orthostats, particularly the taller, slender ones which have fallen, are well shaped. Just what you would expect. In addition the circle is carefully positioned so Crib Goch, arguably the most elegant peak in the area, dominates the horizon to approx west. The incredibly enigmatic rock formation Castell-y-Gwynt surmounts the main Glyderau summits to the north. The landscape is in place.
Excavation might prove unusually revealing owing to the waterlogged nature of the site. In lieu of that, however .... and owing to the absurdly low probability of someone actually bothering to erect a folly in such a position... I would suggest the onus is very much on debunkers to explain why they believe the site is not genuine? In my - it has to be said - not inconsiderable experience I am not aware of any examples of Welsh upland stone circles 'coming and going'. I would welcome notification.
With luck Thesweetcheat and I will be there on Saturday. Also one cant ignore the other bronze age sites very close by, cists, cairns and Tal y Braich stone circle (identified as such despite there only being one stone) is only three miles away. were no experts either but we also have some experience. In case it doesn't grab us by the ahem's we have other places to see.
I'm looking forward to seeing it, the fieldnotes and the pics make it look like a great spot, even if sitting and having a picnic there may not be that attractive. The stones are not atypical of many other Welsh upland stone circles, in fact they're quite a bit bigger and more substantial than some (Cerrig Duon, Nant Tarw, Gelli Hill, to name but three).
I disagree about about the onus being on the debunkers . The onus is always on those suggesting the most unlikely scenario . I don't believe it is a folly or a modern attempt at building a "stone circle " .
A ring of stones even if set , does not a prehistoric stone circle make , anymore than a line of stones an alignment . There is no evidence of the stones being set , there are no other contemporaneous monuments , it doesn't look the part from the pics . The situation in relation to an elegant peak is hardly diagnostic ,and is a likely component of any upland rocky area putative site .Similarly the situation in relation to water ,one thing there is no shortage of in upland areas . People are finding "stone circles "all the time , 2-3 a year on here and the meg portal , some might get investigated but like others noted by antiquarians eventually get forgotten about .
The reason " fortuitous " stone circles have come and gone over the years is that they are usually found in rocky upland areas and often first noted and even dismissed long before you had the opportunity to gain any experience , here is a more recent Welsh example that you might have been aware of coflein.gov.uk/en/site/84463/details/RHYD-WEN+FACH%2C+STONE+SETTING/. There are plenty more elsewhere .Maybe because antiquarianism was less common in the Welsh uplands ,earlier mentions of putative monuments are less often noted in Coflein whereas Canmore has earlier mentions of those putative monuments subsequently demoted to natural status . We may have to wait for a couple of generations before we see the revision and re-assessment of some of the Coflein entries .
Sorry, I really don't get this. If you can explain why there is a ring of stone uprights placed - by human agency, of that there can be no credible doubt whatsoever - beside Llyn Cwmffynnon that was not erected during the prehistoric please do so. I'm open to options, being often bemused by the Welsh customs of my family. My fault, no doubt. What possible function does it serve? Here? A cockpit within a marsh? The meeting place of some neo-pagan cult? Possibilities, granted. But more credible than what is staring us in the face? Down in the valley sit two Bronze Age cists? A very large cairn sits above Pen-y-Gwryd, a long cairn a little way beyond. Where did these people erect their stone circle, as was apparently the custom then?
At least we agree that 'The onus is always on those suggesting the most unlikely scenario'........
I've been to Rhyd Wen Fach (as has Cerrig and possibly Gladman) and there's nothing comparable there with the upright stones in Gladman's pictures from Dyffryn Mymbyr, which really do not look naturally placed at all to me (as far as you can tell from a photo). If not naturally placed, then they must have been erected by humans - the question then becomes "when?" and probably only excavation is going to confirm or otherwise. There are other contemporaneous or near-contemporaneous (assuming Bronze Age) monuments throughout the Snowdon updlands.
The stone circles that have been added on here recently (several by me) have all come from Coflein. Until they decide to revise their opinions, I'm happy to trust their judgement (especially as they have all stemmed from site visits rather than looking at photos).
themodernantiquarian.com/site/13606/rhydwen_fach_stone_setting.html
Snowdonia really does seem to be lagging behind, does it not? Sort out that leg and help the Postman in his quest SC. That is an order!
I'd love to sort it out, but 5 months on and it's still not right. Mountains will have to wait, sadly, but luckily the Welsh coast is keeping me nicely busy. Dyffryn Mymbyr can't wait though.
Mine's been 15 years and still not right... a bloke at work has just torn medial ligaments. Shit happens, I'm afraid. Keep going, but adjust. Somehow I got up Sgurr Alasdair not that long ago. Persevere.
Stating the obvious, but keep an open mind re this circle, SC. Say what you see, not what you want to see. There is no doubt this is human... but check out the horizons... ancient or modern thinking? I'm particularly interested in whether Castell-y-Gwynt can be seen?
That's the way it will be I think. We've now completed the first up-and-down section of coast (Castle Ditches to Ogmore). Not huge amounts of ascent but steep in places - the leg has coped okay. So I'm just easing back into it - still very keen to climb Tryfan next year at some point.
Re the circle - you know us, we say what we see generally (I think). Forecast is dubious, I think the submersible idea might not be so ridiculous.
The weather so far this week we'll be lucky to see any horizon at all,
No other contemporaneous monuments?
There's really quite a few, how many do you need? how far away should they be?
G. My original comment was " you don't sound convinced " . Bearing that in mind and looking at the pics didn't convince me either . Whilst a neo pagan monument may seem unlikely is a genuine pagan circle any more so ?
TSC ,The reason I mentioned Rhyd Wen Fach was simply as an example of those monuments that "come and go " that G was unaware of and not as a monumental comparison to Dyffryn Mymbyr .There are BA monuments in Snowdonia but nothing in the immediate area ,most of the other finds from the EAS survey in the area are based around sheep management e.g. pens , folds , walls and shelters even some hut circles , nothing ceremonial but plenty of man made stuff . Some of the examples from Coflein of what are described as prehistoric stone rows that I have seen , only ever pics and never in person , do seem dodgy and usually based on one person's say so . It will be interesting to see how opinions change over the years with hopefully other site visits and re-assessments . This has yet to happen with many of the more recent surveys on Coflein whereas on Canmore there has been a longer period of site re-visits and re-assessments resulting in changes to the status of borederline monuments , I recently posted one example that is still considered a “ stone circle “ .
And for the record my comment was just a joke about people putting up a circle just to get us in a bog, at no point did i ever think it was a real folly, and like gladman say's just because it's wet now doesn't mean it was when it was built, it now looks like a wellie job to me and i'm sure i'll end up there one day, I'm a stone circle freak and with that head on i can tell [i'm sure you lot can see this as well] that some of the stones still standing are clearly stereotypically shaped stone circle stones, one stone [wider at the top and thinning towards the bottom] reminds me a lot of one of the stones in Na Clachan Bhreige stone circle on Skye.
Thanks George. Interestingly Rhyd Wen Fach has been marked on the OS 1/25000 for quite a while now (I'm not sure how long exactly), so although the consensus here seems to be that it's the least convincing site we've visited, it's made it to at least a slightly wider audience.
I have to say that the stones at the Dyffryn Mymbyr site do at least look like the stones used in other Welsh upland circles. At present a more plausible explanation for their placing doesn't seem immediately obvious. It will be good to get a sense of scale - Mr G, how does this compare diameter-wise with other Welsh circles?
I haven't been to Rhyd Wen Fach so that is something to look out for in the future.
In respect of the Llyn Cwm-ffynnon site the 'circle isn't especially large.... difficult to gauge really since I didn't want to leave great, muddy boot prints within by pacing it out.... I stuck to the outside perimeter. The uprights are not small in comparison with other Welsh circles - larger than South Walian sites such as Y Cerrig Duon, probably on par with the average Mid Walian upland site. If there can be said to be such a thing. The caveat here is it wasn't clear how much remains beneath the surface.... imagine if the Tursachan had never been stripped of peat? (An interesting point, perhaps, is that I have often found the aforementioned Y Cerrig Duon to be very boggy indeed... run-off from Y Mynydd Du). The fallen stones are pretty substantial, elegant, even. Come on. You know you must go have a look...
One of the classics still on the map and Canmore is Whitehillocks . There are even pics of the area before the stones appeared .The odd thing is that the farmer who dumped the stones was unaware of the cup marked rock right outside the farm . Scroll down it's mixed up with Whitehills .megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=1353 .
Another "stone circle " and cup marked rock on Canmore themodernantiquarian.com/site/3458/borland_glen.html .
The rock is definitely natural and I don't believe that the stones ,although possibly set , are prehistoric , or necessarily prehistoric .
The two closest circle sites that I'm aware of , Tal y-Baich and the Penamenmawr sites have bigger stone(s) and it looks like they woud be no shortage of accessible bigger stones if needed ,and they are also set quite close together .
Cerrig Pryfaid has comparable sized stones, that's not far from Penmaenmawr and not much more than 10 miles from Dyffryn Mymbyr.
themodernantiquarian.com/site/142/
There is also a fan of small stones at Bwlch-y-Ddeufaen, mentioned in Frances Lynch's "Gwynedd", also near Cerrig Pryfaid.
themodernantiquarian.com/post/101357/bwlchyddeufaen.html
One stone did remind me of these .
themodernantiquarian.com/site/2506/crinan_moss.html
They are supposed to be over a metre into the peat .
K Laws did mention that some were toppling , messy but it might be possible to get an idea how deeply they are set , it doesn't look like a particularly deep "moss" from the pics .
Cerrig Pryfaid. I missed it it on my last time in the area loks great .Reminds me a wee bit of .Crap pic alert ,I must have something better . All the stones small and quartz .
themodernantiquarian.com/site/7303/shian_burn.html
Yep, good comparison (even the pylons!). Cerrig Pryfaid is great, Postie has had the best of it at solstice I think.
I have to say I wouldn't call Cerrig Pryfaid comparable SC. The Cwm-ffynnon's fallen/recumbent stones are much too large for one thing. For me that is much more in line with the South Walian sites. And those upon Penmaenmawr don't seem to 'belong' to North Wales (in the same way Stonehenge doesn't seem to to England). Irish imports, perhaps?
Guess this highlights the need for scale shots, does it not? Trying to avoid them.
Yes, it does - the stones in your pics look similar height to ones at Cerrig Pryfaid (none more than 0.5m tall) although Cerrig Pryfaid has a wider diameter according to Coflein. Frances Lynch gives Cerrig Pryfaid a 23m diamater, Coflein only gives Dyffryn Mymbyr 14m.
Penmaenmawr could be relocated to Cornwall, or maybe the Precellis? I like 'em where there are though.
A plan of the lay out would be good .
Fwiw early 6 inch maps only show the area as rushes /bog . it's only the later 1:25000 shows the area as a lochan complete with two "islands" .
The " jewel in the pool " stone looks a bit rough around the edges ??
Also the the redder type lichens look like those that are found on the more recently exposed stones often found beside ditches and tracks but rarely found on those that have been exposed for centuries ??
This must be the longest set of comments to a field note ever - perhaps this should have been a discussion thread! (Bit late now). I'm even more intrigued to see the bloody thing now, although the forecast for Satirday suggests we may need underwater surveying equipment and an ROV to see anything above the waves.
Do you have a dingy?, they could be the first stone circle photo's from a dingy.
Would now be a good time to say I set the thing up myself for a laugh?
Ha ha ha ha!
No, it wouldn't.
[Paul, not so much as a lilo.]
No you say that after they've been!!!
"Fwiw early 6 inch maps only show the area as rushes /bog . it's only the later 1:25000 shows the area as a lochan complete with two "islands" ."
Had a look at the current largest scale (1/2500) today, that doesn't show the little lake either, just the big one.
That's because it's just one massive one now, i hope you've got your 25 metre badge.
Actually, no, I can't swim. Gulp.
Well make sure you do take a big Gulp then!!! and hopefully you'll bob back up to the top.