Re: Jeremy Corbyn continues promoting Labour lies about SNP (BBC Andrew Marr Show 27 Sept 2015)

Jeremy Corbyn continues promoting Labour lies about SNP (BBC Andrew Marr Show 27 Sept 2015)

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drewbhoy Sep 28, 2015 12:03:08

Replying to IanB

IanB wrote:

As a instinctual internationalist I struggle with the very idea of nationalism as a political movement. My mind is open I just don't understand the argument or what the appeal is beyond tribalism and an arbitrary and wholly nostalgic sense of what constitutes a nation state.

Should we turn the clock back to 1708 for everyone in Europe and return Greece to Venetian rule, turn a chunk of Holland over to Spain and send the rest of the Balkans into the arms of Turkey? 300 years on is there really any difference?

Why should we suffer from a Govt and unionist parties that don't care? Its lies lies and more lies. I'd hoped and expected more from Corbyn but in the end he fell down at the first hurdle. As for nationalism I don't believe in that but I do believe in independence and Scotlands right to care for the disadvantaged/elderly/refugees/schools/health and so on.

Turn the clock back 300 years if you want, doesn't make sense to me. We are looking forwards to creating a better Scotland, getting rid of sectarianism (the Vote No dream of keeping this going has had its day), taking on the racists, proper care for the elderly/disabled, better education etc etc. Maybe it is idealism but at least it's a start. It's wonderful that many people south of the border send letters/emails to the Scottish MPs asking for help with their concerns. No reason for that to stop if we are independent.

Lawrence Sep 28, 2015 12:07:10

Replying to drewbhoy

I would hope that they would take on racists anyways. But I'm not so hopeful when there's so much hatred going on in Eastern Europe in the guise of Nationalism.

IanB Sep 28, 2015 13:29:15

Replying to drewbhoy

drewbhoy wrote:

IanB wrote:

What hurdle did Corbyn fall at? Conference delegates voted against Trident being a debating issue in favour of other items. Conference voted not Corbyn. It's a democracy not a dictatorship. In any case do you think Labour is going to support a party seemingly dedicated to bequeathing England a permanent Tory majority so as to have something solid to push against? Why on earth would we do that?

I am not the one advocating turning the clock back. I am just throwing into the pot some other oddities of the European map that existed the last time Scotland was an independent state.

I think there are grounds for doubt that the SNP will be able to prioritise any of the things you describe once independence is achieved. There are economic doubts and there is also the historical facts as to what generally happens to nationalist movements once the main political aims have been won. The USA probably being the prime example.

For socialists the idea that working people are stronger together regardless of borders should be an article of faith and essentially there is no difference between what you describe and Boris advocating putting a wall around the M25 and declaring London an independent city state in order to protect *his* people and hang the rest. The nationalist and socialist instincts are I believe ultimately incompatible beyond short term marriages of convenience.

thispoison Sep 29, 2015 03:19:51

Replying to drewbhoy

http://wingsoverscotland.com/normal-service-resumed/#more-76026 http://wingsoverscotland.com/normal-service-resumed/#more-76026 class="forum-quote-author">IanB wrote:

drewbhoy wrote:

He claimed the SNP privatised Scotrail (privatised by the Tories), Calmac (its owned by the Scottish Govt.), he said the SNP were anti austerity (obviously didn't see party leaders debate), Labour agreeing to Tory fiscal policy if in power, no debate on Trident (he's supposed to be against Trident and on the side of peace :-( )

Now I have nothing to do with the SNP and don't vote for them but he should at least do his homework.

I watched the same programme and found his push back at the SNP pretty mild considering. I didn't hear him say anything about supporting the Tories on fiscal policy. I don't understand your point about the SNP and austerity. The no debate on Trident was a conference decision. He wanted one. Conference didn't. He has not abandoned it at all. He quite specifically said he hoped to be able to turn his colleagues around. If JC is making other shit up then I would be kind of disappointed but in the end it would just be goose/gander. I do hope Labour will do a deal with the Greens in certain constituencies. That would be progress.

So McDonnell's lies were "pretty mild considering"? Maybe from where you're sitting.

He said Labour were the only true anti-austerity party now. Another lie. So I imagine what Drew meant was "he said the SNP were NOT anti austerity". A simple typo.

I've lost all faith in these two - Corbyn & McDonnell - in the past couple days of bare-faced lying. It just may have been a good idea to seek consensus and alliance with like minded parties where you can - and you yourself mention the Greens, who played an excellent part in the pro-indepence campaign in Scotland last year - against the Tories and their austerity agenda. Y'know - the REAL enemy. But no, too small minded and hurting from their near-wipeout here in the General Election for that. And too "Tribal" - oh, yes. So fuck 'em. Labour clearly still do not have a clue about Scotland. Game on.

PS/
I know I've posted links to Wings Over Scotland articles before, but I really do recommend readers take a few minutes to read the one below, which explores the "basis" for McDonnell's Conference speech SNP howlers. You'll maybe begin to realise the depths of mendacity to which Scottish Labour will stoop in their efforts to try to discredit the SNP at any opportunity.:

http://wingsoverscotland.com/normal-service-resumed/#more-76026