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jshell wrote:
I disagree about Europe. I want us out and I want us out now. I currently live in Norway and they laugh at the UK. Norway has more trade with Europe than us but remains outside the EU in terms of stupid laws, financial controls and downright fuckwittery.
Personally I disagree with your position on the EU for a bunch of reasons. What I don't understand is why people can't debate the issue without plucking imaginary facts from the air. It's really quite disheartening.

The claim that "Norway has more trade with Europe than us" is just nonsense. Of the highest order. It can be massaged to fit reality if you talk about trade per capita, but as we'll see given the deficits involved - that cuts both ways.

The last year for which we have full figures is 2011. During that year, Norway exported a total of €46.6bn in goods to the EU and €20.9bn in services. That's a total of €67.5bn.

During the same year, they imported €93.5bn in goods and €11.4bn in services; a total of €104.9bn.

So you're looking at total trade figures of around €172bn (incorporating a deficit of €37.4bn).

Figures from here.

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The UK in 2011, exported £158bn to the EU (or €187bn at today's exchange rate). Imports for the same year were £202bn (€240bn).

So total UK trade with the EU for 2011 was €427bn (with a deficit of €53bn).

Figures taken from spreadsheets downloaded here

These numbers dwarf the Norwegian trade figures.

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Of course, you can argue that Norway has a tiny population in comparison with the UK. Very true. But let's take a look at what that actually implies for the trade deficits of both nations.

With Norway's population at approx 5m, their trade deficit with the EU works out at:
€7,480 per person

For the UK, with a population of 62.5m, the trade deficit with the EU is:
€848 per person

Suddenly your claim that "Norway has more trade with Europe than us" isn't looking all that solid (either on a per capita basis, or in raw numbers)

Ultimately though that's of little relevance when you take a look at the composition of Norway's exports. Over 55% of Norway's exports to the EU is crude oil / natural gas or their derivatives. This compares with 18% for the UK. And crucially, the giant North Sea oil and gas fields have peaked and entered decline. Norway's miraculous trade figures are based on a one-off geological bounty that is coming to an end.

I do not deny that Norway is punching above its weight as far as population Vs exports is concerned. But just as Ireland punched above its weight throughout the noughties thanks to a property boom that has now left us devastated, so Norway's export activity will essentially collapse along with their oil output.

In fairness to the Norwegians, they have seen this coming and are better prepared for their bubble to burst than were the Irish. But to suggest that Norway's past success is in any way tied to their non-EU status is fantasy. And to suggest this success will outlive their hydrocarbon boom is highly dubious.

I was hoping to find a reply here ;-)

Thanks for the well considered post, and the numbers did make me re-think in terms of the trade figures. Unlike many posters, I’m always open to correction.

It's worth noting though, that Norway is more than a one-trick-pony in that it exports vast quantities of fish, shipping and is the EU's largest supplier of aluminium, amongst other metals.

On the point of relevance though, I disagree with you that the North Sea oil and gas fields have peaked. Well, perhaps those existing ones, but STATOIL have made some utterly massive finds in the last few years and the proportion of continental shelf that has been explored so far is very small – something like 15%. Those new finds have not been developed yet and are the reason for the utter jobs boom in Norway. Norway’s gas production is and will be huge for a very long time to come. The value of that export will depend on the actuality of the shale gas deposits being found in various European area countries though as shale gas has been responsible for US gas prices dropping in price by 2/3’s. If NE of England shale gas stacks up to expectations, then Norway may see export values drop, despite those large finds.

Norway is also being used for the development of subsea gas processing technology that will allow very long step-outs into the Arctic waters and even under the ice cap, if need be.

In general terms, I know from the past that you’ve spoken about peak reserves issues, but I disagree with you. Proven hydrate reserves total more hydrocarbons than have ever been found to date. Once those are tapped we will have supplies for the foreseeable future and at least enough to allow the development of future energy technologies. Ironically, the Man Made-up Global Warming scare has even put clean burn coal technology back on the tables... You couldn’t have made that up.


On the EU though, we will also disagree. Norway is protected from the carnage that is ensuing in that it’s a bit more financially protected than most countries. The reason I want to see the UK leave the EU is that it has been plain to the most backward of thinkers that you cannot peg high and low performing economies together without the string eventually being snapped. That’s what we are seeing here now. There are more and more people from Greece to France that want to see an end to this false economic mill-stone. We have had trade agreements prior to the single currency and we will have agreements after the single currency. Germany still needs markets for its cars, and that won’t disappear with the single currency experiment. The reason I brought up Norway in the first place is that they still trade with the EU and are part of Schengen without having most of the fuckwittery that goes with being a member!