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Rockabilly wrote:
What gets me is the constant mantra capitalism good socialism bad.
Except it appears when all the good capitalists have made some stupid mistakes and there institutions are about to collapse around them.
All off a sudden state intervention in a very socialist kind of way is perfectly acceptable.
Hypocritic bastards!
What I find most interesting about the proposed 'bail-outs' using public money is exactly *who* is getting bailed out.

Millions of people face having their homes repossessed because they can no longer afford to pay their debt. This, in turn, means that the institutions who loaned them money are facing ruin.*

To me, if public money is to be spent, it should be spent paying off those mortgages so that people retain possession of their homes. Instead it's being given to the large institutions in order to keep them afloat, meaning that repossessions will continue apace. It is the ultimate expression of capital protecting its own at the expense of the people.

(little known fact, the original tax-rebate handed out by Dubya when he took office would have paid off almost every mortgage in danger of default. Those of us who used the phrase "short-sighted" at the time are being completely vindicated, though it's really not much consolation)

Literal translation of the French word "mortgage"... Pledge of death.


* That's rather simplistic and is only half the story, but it's the half that affects millions of homeowners, rather than the half that affects thousands of financiers.

Lenders made too many loans with stars in their eyes... the idea was that they'd have everyone mortgaged to the hilt with the fat interests and fees on those borrowing's keeping the wealthy in the lifestyle to which they're accustomed.

Of course, nobody did the math that would have shown this plan for what it is... a fantasy.

Every industry with Washington connections in America got it into their heads over the last decade that the new paradigm in economics was to simply take the restraints off greed and take the consumers for everything they've got. Too bad the consumers weren't able to meet the demands of all of them at once.

There's plenty of blame to go around, tho you can't get down to hard on the people who got stuck having to buy during the last insane cycle of speculative house pricing... they were forced to borrow large to meet wildly overinflated home prices. (I'm not talking about the house-flippers and the people who bought way more house than they needed... which is what a lot of contractors were hooked on building during that whole blindly exuberant time.) I was one- tho I did, luckily in a way, have to work within a budget and am paying a fair rate on a very inexpensive home, by today's standards, anyway.

grufty jim wrote:
To me, if public money is to be spent, it should be spent paying off those mortgages so that people retain possession of their homes. Instead it's being given to the large institutions in order to keep them afloat, meaning that repossessions will continue apace. It is the ultimate expression of capital protecting its own at the expense of the people..
This wouldnt work, would take too long (the market would *poof* vanish in the meantime), would cost even more, and would put even more money into the pockets of those responsible. They are paying cents on the dollar for these debts after all. Arguably, as the govt will hold the debt it's the govt that will control the repayments/forclosure rate amounting to the same end game. Albeit controlling it through several layers of abstraction.

The bail out is shit, no argument there, but there is now absolutely no alternative. As I guessed/predicted earlier in this thread Investment banking is now over, gone, and it may never return. This is a good thing, and the source of much rejoicing as far as I'm concerned. Deregulation always just meant reregulation, and painful as it is to admit the seeds of this crap seem to be in the sorta social engineering of Clinton/Reno by pretty much encouraging banks to loan to people who could never afford it. That and artificially holding down interest rates (fed discount), and of course the new debt market system, sprung up out of it and, compounded it all.

I am a socialist, but I don't see this nationalising of the debt to be much of a socialist act in itself. Now, how the govt (or more importantly the next one coming in) use this new debt power to leverage and control the market could lead to some socialist financial policies. But I doubt it. It is important though for all this to have more oversight than Paulson and whoever else he choses to recruit.

An aside: Morgan Stanley is the clown of the debacle though, they've been entertaining me since this started, from inviting CIC (china) to own them to bidding to manage the bailout. Ha. What cards they are. They seriously suggested managing the money that will be used to bail them out and then bill the US people for it. That would have been special.