God V Science (again)

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grufty jim G
grufty jim Sep 17, 2008 15:20:55
Replying to nigelswift

nigelswift wrote:
Don't condemn them Dave. They are merely conforming with Darwin's predictions, ensuring their ways prevail and therefore Tribe Fundi survives! If the bombs drop we'll all go Fundi in the ruins - if we want to survive, that is. Evolution moves in mysterious ways but it always throws up nasty bastards as winners. Ironic really, when the Fundis believe God's plan is the precise opposite!
That's not even close to being true, nigelswift. It's based on thinking that's at least 50 years out of date. Gregory Bateson (my current intellectual hero :) points out that in fact the basic unit of survival is not the organism (or even the gene) but is in fact "organism in environment" and that when viewed through that lens it's clear that cooperative ecosystems tend to be far better at adapting to adverse change than competitive ones.

In reality evolution has many many facets, and to reduce it to a single slogan; "survival of the fittest" or "always throws up nasty bastards as winners" isn't merely failing to see the whole picture, but is in fact quite wrong.

N nigelswift
nigelswift Sep 17, 2008 16:20:02
Replying to grufty jim

"it's clear that cooperative ecosystems tend to be far better at adapting to adverse change than competitive ones.

In reality evolution has many many facets, and to reduce it to a single slogan; "survival of the fittest" or "always throws up nasty bastards as winners" isn't merely failing to see the whole picture, but is in fact quite wrong."

Yes, I accept the rapped knuckles, "always throws up nasty bastards as winners" was too simplistic, though a hell of a good line ;)

On the other hand, your own line "evolution has many many facets" suggests that social co-operation isn't the only way it operates either. There are plenty of species that have lasted for aeons on the basis of solitary existences.

Equally, while social co-operation might be observed to aid species survival in the face of environmental change in many instances, survival of the fittest can play a part even in those species. Put a pack of co-operative wolves on an island, reduce the food supply, and it's the unco-operative bastard that remains to pass his character on.