close
more_vert

handofdave wrote:
The fact that we humans exist, and have developed the capability to mold our environment, build things, even tinker with our own DNA actually is a point the 'creationists' can employ in their argument... if we are so talented, who's to say there isn't some older race of being out there who had a hand in our world?
I think this misunderstands the motivation of creationists. They are not going with a theory that fits the evidence, they are going with the evidence that fits the Bible.

It can't be an older race. The bible made clear it's one being. To say 'an older race' would be blasphemy.

nigelswift wrote:
Back in the good old days, long ago, when I were a lad and teachers taught stuff, my Biology teacher spent weeks on evolution and in the last ten seconds she said "Of course, some people believe Genesis instead".
Genesis has two creation stories, though. Chapter one has God making light, water, land, plants, animals, and then lastly man and woman at the same time. Less than a page later, at a time before the earth has plants, he makes the first man from dust who has 15 verses of mooching about getting lonely before God pulls out a rib and builds a woman.

The key thing is that it's all laid out and nothing evolves. Evolution is at odds with the idea of the eternal soul. I cannot see how anyone can square the two.

As I rabbit on about at length here, either everything has souls (in which case you're a mass murderer ever time you walk on grass or chop vegetables); or God introduced souls at some point in evolution (a bit mad given that the first ensouled child will have had anatomically indistinguishable parents); or we have some better grade of soul; or the whole thing's bollocks.

Oh, I know what the creationists are trying to achieve. Lately they've been getting a bit more shrewd with the whole 'intelligent design' angle.

What's funny to me is that now that they're trying to play science at it's own game, I think some creationists are beginning to ease up on their dim view of evolution.

Ultimately, we may never be able to forensically discern just exactly when and what constituted that spark that turned inanimate matter into the incredibly rich biosphere that we have on this planet. I do know I'd rather have that unanswered than cheapen the mystery by adopting some crude mythology as a substitute for real knowledge, tho.

A pox on you all I know which belief system I'm joining ;)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_Earth_Society

If you want to join there's a marvellous questionnaire, choose between your favorite historical figure, Rasputin, Bonapart, Tony Blair or Attila the Hun

http://www.alaska.net/~clund/e_djublonskopf/Flatearthsociety.htm

strange what you find in your email first thing in the morning.....

Well tbh, the whole of the Old Testament is inconsistent (it gets even more completely out there if you throw in the book(s) of Enoch too), and its, of course, totally at odds with the New Testament (which is reasonable really).

The New testament itself is a complete mess, when not only are the gospels are split 2 against 2 with something as important as the Ascension (did he go see Mary, or go see Peter), but the acts of the apostles after that are completely at odds with the fundamental message of Christ. Its all interpretation, and a lot of the many branches of Christianity have formed a workable consistency out of it by cherry picking interpretation. The whole text cannot by any stretch be used as a consistent structure for a faith. The best bet is to go to the original Judaic text that were ripped off to make the Old Testament. However, it's the New Testament that should count for Christians really, which doesnt contain the creation myth. So, Christiantity it could be argued could/should function more like Taoism in regards the formation of the universe.

In the first two centuries after Christs death the schisms within Christianity were a lot more marked than they are now. There was also a group of faiths modern Thelogians describe as 'gnostic' who seem to be closer to the gospels than the acts, but even they had groups within them that were trying to crowbar in the many gods of the Hellenic myths. One of the main principles of the Gnostics though seems to be that the Holy Spirit is female, or at least the creator (mother) of God, and God, well, lies a lot.

In short what I'm saying is Christian disagrements with the text, and even going as far as rejecting entirely the creation myth therein is not a recent development. There are also the texts discovered in the Nag Hammadi Library that didnt make the cut into the accepted books (Gospel of Thomas, Mary, Apocryphon of John, Song of Sophia etc) of the bible we have today, a collection of texts that interestingly also included a fair chunk of Plato's Republic. There are even more alternative creation myths in those codex.

Sooo...? The faith works when, like other faiths, it is taken outside of the possible metaphor, metaphysical descriptions of how the universe was created. It's all moot. It's because that it functions as a tool of ethics that it continues to function today. Fairy stories are fairy stories, they were to some people in 2AD as they are now to some people in 2008AD.

I also think that the idea that the concept of the eternal soul is somehow diametrically opposed to evolution is well, dumb tbh. It shows a complete lack of understanding as to what the soul is to Christians (but it would take way too long for me to go into it properly). As for animals, plants etc, erm, what ? We have 'dominion over the animals' to quote the text on that one, Soul vessels or not.

It's the Holy Spirit, receiving it, listening to it and acting on it that should be the true form of a Christian. That is the only singularly consistent part of the faith. Also, its important for a Christian to accept that even people in Spirit can sin, it doesnt take away freewill after all (thats the current batch of evangelicals grave mistake, blasphemy if you like). As Christ was pretty clear, work in spirit, help those who ask for your help, aid them to receive the spirit if they ask for it. That's it, everything else is a distraction, irrelevance. Evolution, much like politics, or anything else 'of this world' are not things Christians should be involved in. When Christianity became a political, state system, or generally an agent of control, it ceases to be Christian. Those are thr proper arguments/issues to raise with the hypocritical forms that are attempting to push creationism. 'Spreading the word' means discussing, not enforcing (christ again is pretty fucking clear there, in 'the pray for them' and 'leave her alone' approach), and the creation myth of Genesis is not part of that word either tbh.