Eire 91
Image by Meic

tiompan wrote:
There is quite a difference between the mounds of long barrows , passage tombs etc and the cairns that surrounded portal tombs .
The former dwarf the latter have kerb stones and are not composed of stones to anything like the same extent . It is this differece that could explain why some cairns were removed i.e. a useful source of stone .Furthermore none have been shown to cover the capstone suggesting the possibility that not only stabilising the orthostats the purpose may have also been to help the raise the capstone .
There is also the point of the aesthetic form and sheer substantial nature of many surviving capstones. I'm no structural engineer, but I've often been struck by just how impressive they are in relation to a role of merely roofing over a chamber, suggesting that surely there must have been some requirement towards display. Why go to all that trouble then pile rock or earth over the top? I understand this is looking at it from a 21st century viewpoint, and the fact that the gods would know it was impressive regardless might have been enough, but I would have thought human vanity - ours is better than theirs - would have played a part.

Agree with the source of stone point.... clearly Iron Age culture generally respected/feared cairns as representing a bygone source of 'power' or else so many round cairns and long/round barrows would not have been retained, and still survive, within hillforts. However once that reverence had gone, great source of building stone! And the nearer a site was to later habitation, the more chance of complete removal.

The thing that bugs me, however, is the hollowing out of upland cairns where it would have been just as easy - if not easier - to collect surface rock straight from the ground lower down the hill/mountain. A good example of this is at the Carnau'r Garreg Las I visited a couple of weeks back. Rock litters the mountainside, yet both cairns are substantially defaced internally. The 'storm shelter' theory is also tenuous here since the cairns lie well off the main east/west path traversing Y Mynydd Du, with some (albeit isolated) farms less than an easy hours descent to the NW? Such mutilation would have required a great deal of effort.... for what? Treasure hunting/unrecorded excavation would appear the most logical explanation.... people will be willing to go to lengths if there is the chance of substantial reward. Or could some ritualistic requirement have provided the necessary motive for destruction... sort of akin to incomers to an area saying 'your justification for ownership is your ancestors reside upon the hill.... well, they don't any more since we've got rid of them... we're in charge now'.

GLADMAN wrote:
tiompan wrote:
There is quite a difference between the mounds of long barrows , passage tombs etc and the cairns that surrounded portal tombs .
The former dwarf the latter have kerb stones and are not composed of stones to anything like the same extent . It is this differece that could explain why some cairns were removed i.e. a useful source of stone .Furthermore none have been shown to cover the capstone suggesting the possibility that not only stabilising the orthostats the purpose may have also been to help the raise the capstone .
There is also the point of the aesthetic form and sheer substantial nature of many surviving capstones. I'm no structural engineer, but I've often been struck by just how impressive they are in relation to a role of merely roofing over a chamber, suggesting that surely there must have been some requirement towards display. Why go to all that trouble then pile rock or earth over the top? I understand this is looking at it from a 21st century viewpoint, and the fact that the gods would know it was impressive regardless might have been enough, but I would have thought human vanity - ours is better than theirs - would have played a part.

Agree with the source of stone point.... clearly Iron Age culture generally respected/feared cairns as representing a bygone source of 'power' or else so many round cairns and long/round barrows would not have been retained, and still survive, within hillforts. However once that reverence had gone, great source of building stone! And the nearer a site was to later habitation, the more chance of complete removal.

The thing that bugs me, however, is the hollowing out of upland cairns where it would have been just as easy - if not easier - to collect surface rock straight from the ground lower down the hill/mountain. A good example of this is at the Carnau'r Garreg Las I visited a couple of weeks back. Rock litters the mountainside, yet both cairns are substantially defaced internally. The 'storm shelter' theory is also tenuous here since the cairns lie well off the main east/west path traversing Y Mynydd Du, with some (albeit isolated) farms less than an easy hours descent to the NW? Such mutilation would have required a great deal of effort.... for what? Treasure hunting/unrecorded excavation would appear the most logical explanation.... people will be willing to go to lengths if there is the chance of substantial reward. Or could some ritualistic requirement have provided the necessary motive for destruction... sort of akin to incomers to an area saying 'your justification for ownership is your ancestors reside upon the hill.... well, they don't any more since we've got rid of them... we're in charge now'.

Same applies to passage grave art , corbelling , internal architecture etc all lost to view , the punters were probably not the priority .
In the case of a cairn , treasure hunting has to be an option ,although throwing rocks down a hillside must have been as common a past-time then as today . Yep shelters are generally for summits and only for sitting out the shower /blizzard ,real shelters are much lower and not on a shoulder .
Defacement / destruction/iconoclasm in prehistory is common enough le Petit chaussure ,Val de Aosta , Mount Pleasant , possibly the some of the bluestone stumps at Stonehenge from the Beaker transition and much else that would have just gone unnoticed .

Excellent point. The more of these cairns I come across, the more convinced I am that they were initially constructed with dished interiors. This would make them functional in some way, rather than merely marking a particular spot. I'm pretty sure at this stage that the cairns were used for something, sky burial being one, but by no means the only one, of many possibilities

Something else occurs to me that reinforces the opinion that none of the Irish portals were covered. Not one has ever been found in recent times beneath a mound, or even partially covered. It seems unlikely that all of 174 documented examples have had their original mounds removed by someone. If they were it had to be a someone, as rain would not do it.
Distribution. The majority above a line running from Mayo to Dublin, with 10 out of 15 in Galway and Mayo being on the coast. A cluster in a line running from Dublin to Waterford, and only 2 s.w of a line running Waterford/Limerick.

Slightly off track and only a thought......


Always been fascinated by this group of tombs near Pendine, (although never been there) and the Pembrokeshire coastal path, Geo.Nash photos show something very similar to Rockhoppers video, though out of the 4/5 tombs only one capstone remains. Cromlechs 'hidden' amongst the stones?


http://www.coflein.gov.uk/en/site/304168/images/MORFA+BYCHAN+CHAMBERED+CAIRNS/

http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=15126

Well having explored parts of Pembrokeshire for years and pottered round the cromlechs, West Wales close proximity to Ireland there must be similarities regarding the chambered neolithic cromlechs and whether or not they were covered. It seems to me, that quite a few were definitely not covered because of the absence of soil. On St.David's Head you are almost on bare rock, soil only accumulating in the valley below. The three tombs below are just sitting on rock....

Also Carn Wnda, and Garn Wen (sub megalithics) comes to mind as well, as having no covering, they are quite crude inasfar as design goes.


http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/3555/carn_llidi_tombs.html

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/site/1595/coetan_arthur.html