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Castlerigg desecration and vandalism

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grufty jim G
grufty jim Jul 9, 2008 13:06:06
Replying to moss

moss wrote:
Its a bit much that our sites are being desecrated by people from another country, how would they feel if we did the same in their country I wonder.
That was ironic, right? The history of colonial powers tends not to be filled with respect for the sacred sites of the colonised. I find it mind-boggling, for instance, that despite repeated protests from the Greek government, you still need to travel to London to view many of the statues from the Parthenon. And the looting of Egyptian antiquities remains one of the great cultural crimes of modern history.

More recently, and in a more general sense, one only needs to look at Macchu Picchu to see the effect of (mostly European and American) tourists on the sacred sites of other lands.

Of course, none of this lessens the desecration or vandalism of sites closer to home (by natives or by visitors) one single jot. But it's worth bearing in mind that the Guatemalan in question was merely carrying on a rich tradition practiced, sadly, by many.

M moss
moss Jul 9, 2008 13:58:57
Replying to grufty jim

grufty jim wrote:
moss wrote:
Its a bit much that our sites are being desecrated by people from another country, how would they feel if we did the same in their country I wonder.
That was ironic, right? The history of colonial powers tends not to be filled with respect for the sacred sites of the colonised. I find it mind-boggling, for instance, that despite repeated protests from the Greek government, you still need to travel to London to view many of the statues from the Parthenon. And the looting of Egyptian antiquities remains one of the great cultural crimes of modern history.

More recently, and in a more general sense, one only needs to look at Macchu Picchu to see the effect of (mostly European and American) tourists on the sacred sites of other lands.

Of course, none of this lessens the desecration or vandalism of sites closer to home (by natives or by visitors) one single jot. But it's worth bearing in mind that the Guatemalan in question was merely carrying on a rich tradition practiced, sadly, by many.

All of that is of course true, and you are probably right to say we should look at what we have done in the past before pointing fingers at others.
Macchu Picchu is slowly being destroyed by tourists from all over the world, the Greek government have just built a new museum to house the statues from the Parthenon and lets hope they get them back.
Looting of sites is carried on by invading armies (Iraq), though also the local people are systematically digging up stuff to sell - the morality of each and every case has to be looked at individually.
The people to blame in this instance are the host organisation who allowed it to happen, they surely would have known that lighting of fires in stone circles is not on. The Guatemalans have their own traditions and were probably unaware of the uproar it would cause, so probably no blame there.

Edit; Got to come back on this one ;) googling there are pages of Mayan fire Ceremonies - mostly in other countries - even at the Glastonbury Festival, so what are we really looking at? A rebirth of ancient traditions or, a new age idea being touted around?

L Littlestone
Littlestone Jul 9, 2008 15:09:30
Replying to grufty jim

That was ironic, right? The history of colonial powers tends not to be filled with respect for the sacred sites of the colonised. I find it mind-boggling, for instance, that despite repeated protests from the Greek government, you still need to travel to London to view many of the statues from the Parthenon.
Hi GJ

Much of what you say is quite true (re: the desecration/destruction of foreign sacred/cultural sites by colonial powers). But it's not just Western colonial powers - China and Japan wreacked havoc on the cultural sites and the artistic legacy of Korea for example, so much so that there are quite possibly more ancient Korean paintings in Japan now than there are in Korea itself! The wrecking and the looting of a country's cultural heritage often goes hand-in-hand with foreign or religious/political control. The British wrecked the Summer Palace just outside Beijing in 1860 and 1900. The Red Army, during the Cultural Revolution in China, wrecked its own cultural heritage. More recently the Taliban wrecked the Buddhist statues at Bamiyam (though thankfully it now seems probable that the gigantic task of restoring them will be undertaken http://www.thaipro.com/thailand_00/128_bamiyan_buddha.htm )

The above are all outrageous examples of desecration and vandalism inflicted by one belief system on another. The fact that the Elgin Marbles are at the British Museum however is a slightly different matter. While I agree with you in principle that they belong in Greece the fact of the matter is that even today, after decades, the Parthenon looks like a building site where the builders knocked off for tea twenty years ago and never came back! The corrosive air pollution of Athens is horrendous, and there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that had not the Marbles been removed, cleaned, conserved and kept in an environmentally controlled climate at the British Museum, they would not be in existence today - the Greek authorities should be mindful of that fact, and if they really do want to make a case for having them back they should get on with cleaning up their city and with the restoration of the Parthenon itself (the Elgin Marbles of course never will go back onto the building but into the new Acropolis Museum in Athens http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7380279.stm - in other words from one museum to another).

As I say though I do agree with you in principle that artefacts and works of art should be returned to their country of origin if the country in question asks for them. It's not only the Elgin Marbles of course - the Dunhuang collection of paintings and manuscripts kept at the British Museum and the British Library is another candidate for return. I should point out however that the British Museum is legally bound not to disposed of, in any way shape or form, any item in its collection). Ironically, and on a personal note, I find it mind-boggling that most of the wonderful Anglo-Saxon Franks Casket, with is runic inscriptions, is in the British Museum while the right end panel of the Casket is in the Bargello Museum in Florence ;-)

C Cursuswalker
Cursuswalker Jul 11, 2008 00:02:40
Replying to grufty jim

grufty jim wrote:
moss wrote:
Its a bit much that our sites are being desecrated by people from another country, how would they feel if we did the same in their country I wonder.
That was ironic, right? The history of colonial powers tends not to be filled with respect for the sacred sites of the colonised. I find it mind-boggling, for instance, that despite repeated protests from the Greek government, you still need to travel to London to view many of the statues from the Parthenon. And the looting of Egyptian antiquities remains one of the great cultural crimes of modern history.

More recently, and in a more general sense, one only needs to look at Macchu Picchu to see the effect of (mostly European and American) tourists on the sacred sites of other lands.

Of course, none of this lessens the desecration or vandalism of sites closer to home (by natives or by visitors) one single jot. But it's worth bearing in mind that the Guatemalan in question was merely carrying on a rich tradition practiced, sadly, by many.

In a phrase, so what?

The imperialists who vandalised others ancient remains had no more respect for our own.

Invoking colonial-guilt in a relativist spirit does nothing to help these sites. They should not have done what they did and that's all there is to it.