Re: 'Duergar' is not Celtic but Germanic. | Forum

Simonside 2

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The Duergar?

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Hob Apr 14, 2007 21:34:25

Replying to Dvergish_King

Interesting thoughts about the Old English dragon killing. I wonder if it's possible that Simund and Sigemund might be derivatives of an earlier Anglian/Norse archetype.

It's odd that Simonside has kept both an Anglian name and Anglian folklore. Entities very similar to the Duergar/Brown men also make an appearance in the tales of St Cuthbert, whom they tormented on his island hermitage. There's obviously a whole tangled skein of links between different times amd cultures going on in Northumbrian Folklore. But I can't wonder if the same Anglian/Scandinavian fellas who named Simundsette were aware of the prehistoric rock art nearby, and even if they were the same ones who saw fit to engrave comment on such things, not a million miles away at Lemmington Wood

DK, have you any ideas about the meaning of 'Lordenshaws'?

fitzcoraldo Apr 15, 2007 10:48:07

Replying to Hob

I've just spent two days sitting in a field re-reading Paul Bennetts excellent The Old Stones of Elmet.
Paul comments upon the frequent occurence of this name in the England. He remarks that "considering that personal names, when applied to hills, are of such a rare occurence, we must look for another solution"
Paul explores the druidical links looking at the druidical tradition and Simon Magus.

I found this in the online etymology dictionary "Simon, which is from simos "snub-nosed."

Dvergish_King Apr 15, 2007 18:36:17

Replying to Hob

Shaw is an English word meaning 'small wood'. I am not sure what 'Lorden' means or comes from as Anglo-Saxon placenames look a lot like Modern English words meaning something else (e.g. Simonside looking like it means Simon's Side).

'Lorden' could be a corruption of hlâford (or hlâfweard), which is the origin of the word lord. This meant 'lord' or 'male householder'.

Dvergish_King Apr 15, 2007 19:02:19

Replying to Hob

Hob wrote:

Interesting thoughts about the Old English dragon killing. I wonder if it's possible that Simund and Sigemund might be derivatives of an earlier Anglian/Norse archetype.

It is very likely. The Sigmund character appears most Germanic folklores and dragon killing is very common with Germanic heroes (e.g. Beowulf and Bödvar Bjarki).

Hob wrote:

It's odd that Simonside has kept both an Anglian name and Anglian folklore.

It is lucky. 'Duergar' could just be a Norse loan creature but I think it is an Anglian dialectual word.

The reason Northumbria is the richest in Germanic folklore is because we were not as Normanised as the south, I think.

Hob wrote:

Entities very similar to the Duergar/Brown men also make an appearance in the tales of St Cuthbert, whom they tormented on his island hermitage. There's obviously a whole tangled skein of links between different times amd cultures going on in Northumbrian Folklore. But I can't wonder if the same Anglian/Scandinavian fellas who named Simundsette were aware of the prehistoric rock art nearby, and even if they were the same ones who saw fit to engrave comment on such things, not a million miles away at Lemmington Wood

They probably did. The Anglo-Saxon settlers would likely have attributed the rock art to a Germanic race or God like they did with Wayland's Smithy in Oxfordshire.

Indeed. Dwarves appear throuhout England as a reminder of their old religion. Also Gods like Woden (or Odin in Norse) appear in English myths. Woden usually leads the Wild Hunt though under many names. Wayland became the Devil and Elves (Norse Álfar) remained in our woods. Normans tried to kill our folklore and literature but in truth they only wounded it. It is a shame that some epics and tales are undoubtably lost to us.