Re: 'Ladder Markings' | Forum — The Modern Antiquarian

Panorama Stone 2

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'Ladder Markings'

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Rhiannon Jul 20, 2004 12:31:46

Replying to Kozmik_Ken

Hmm very interesting! Thankyou for your knowledgeable reply. Sounds like you could be right about the 'publicity stunt' element for his new exhibition.
I think if you were keen to fool people your work was genuine, then you'd hardly go adding it to a well-known site where people would notice it had suddenly appeared!? You'd pick some remote spot, and then make up a story about having your lunch there, peeling back the moss and lo finding the new designs - then dragging everyone up there for a look.

Also if you were going to fake them, you'd hardly do it so shallowly that they'd only show up when crayon-rubbed?

StoneLifter Jul 20, 2004 12:44:36

Replying to Rhiannon

I did some crayon rubbing on Sunday - it just came out a complete blur. I guess the rock must be fairly flat to get a good result. There are no forgeries in Rock Art just incorrect attributions. The ladders are original, I guess, based solely on the notion that decoration was, inevitably, influenced by the shape of fields and gardens around where the artisans worked. My experience of discovering a new motif in Rock Art is that nobody shows any interest in it at all - particularly if it's given a dafty name.

(note for Hob - Thunderballs, my email program is 'down'. As it's mainly delivering Spam I'm not rushing to update it. There is a strong stone circle site that needs ground-truthing - it's not a big one - that's near a public footpath and out of the gamekeepered zone. It just it's a peaceful, if windswept spot - NY675517 - near to the 290 metre marking on my decayed OS map. I'm camped at 511m. now - near a supine outlier. That needs a name too!)

Kozmik_Ken Jul 20, 2004 13:23:47

Replying to Rhiannon

> Sounds like you could be right about the 'publicity stunt' element for his new exhibition.

GE is the County Archaeologist and the curator of Ilkley Museum, n' I know he's handling the publicity for the 'Not Set in Stone' exhibition (btw: are you submitting any work yourself?). Perhaps he's trying out the Terry Deary publicity route, as recently displayed regarding the Swastika Stone (which GE also suggested may be a Victorian embelishment).

There has also been news quite recently that local Tory Councilor Brian Mann, is part of a campaign group to get the Panorama Stone moved to the museum. As Gavin is the curator of the museum, I just wonder of there's a bit of local politics going on in the background? Or maybe I'm just being cynical?

I'm not dissing the guy... I've got a lot of respect for him. He's done some excellent excavation work on the moor.

> ...then you'd hardly go adding it to a well-known site where people would notice it had
> suddenly appeared!?

The earliest illustration of the Panorama Stone that I'm aware of dates from the 1870's I think and definitely shows the 'ladders' in situ at that time.

> You'd pick some remote spot, and then make up a story about having your lunch there,
> peeling back the moss and lo finding the new designs - then dragging everyone up there
> for a look.

Funnily enough, that is exactly what happened at the Hangingstones... and conversely, helps to prove that particular carving is genuine.

The guy from the Ben Rydding Hydro noticed the carving when quarrying striped back some of the heather (if I remember right, he maybe the same guy who also saved the Panorama Stone in the 1890s and moved it to it's current location). He appealed to Squire Middleton to halt the quarrying n' saved the carving. If you look at the carving today, you can see where the turf line was, as the right hand section of the carving is much more worn than the left hand side. Other carvings on the rock that weren't covered by turf are also worn and now hard to distinguish.

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/19623
http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/24418

If anyone had anything to gain from embelishing rock art, it was the owners of the spas and water treatment establishments. Before then, Ilkley was a forsaken little place of not much interest to anyone before the railway came along. Yet, I can't really see why they'd bother, as rock art at the time was a little known subject that didn't generate a lot of interest.

> Also if you were going to fake them, you'd hardly do it so shallowly that they'd only show
> up when crayon-rubbed?

It is possible to make out some of the ladder designs when the light is right... but most of the time, they are very hard to see...

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/19632
http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/24368

same at the Barmishaw Stone. I've been trying to get a decent pic of the Barmishaw designs for about 15 years now... but am always thwarted by the weather!

Just seen that Paulus has posted the 1870s pic I mentioned on the Panorama Stone page, which is well useful!

http://www.themodernantiquarian.com/post/26893