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Monganaut wrote:
Don't forget, not all hunter gatherers embraced farming initially. I recall reading somewhere (I forget where exactly, maybe it was something on TV) that in the early years of the Neolithic/farming revolution, that actually those who remained hunter gatherers remained healthier, having a more varied diet than those early farmers who chose to put their eggs in one basket (so to speak). I'm sure those early farmers continued to hunt and gather as before, but being tied to one area, not following the seasonal herds left them at a disadvantage as to variety and availability of dietary resources. And I suppose, it's a lot of effort and organisation setting up a slash and burn field system every few years from woodlands or heath land. One of the dilemmas still unexplained by archaeologists/historians is the vast Neolithic/Bronze Age clearances that went on. We can still see the results of this today, esp in upland areas. Maybe it's as simple as under estimation of the population of the UK at the time, though I doubt this is the case.

It's a nice idea that we lived in harmony with nature and each other, but as Cope says in the Mod Ant (and I'm paraphrasing massively here) if they had the tech and resources we have, they'd have been using them. I'm no believer in that 'lost Eden' attitude. We've always been warlike apes who distrust outsiders. It's just that the general populous was so few, we didn't meet that many 'others' to have it out with. It's easier to live in 'harmony' with nature when there ain't so many of us fighting for resources. 'Civilization and trade forced us into contact with other tribes/nations/ whatever, and in a way forced us to get along if we wanted what they were offering, and vice versa, it's far from our natural way of being. Anthropologists have suggested that the ideal size of a human community is about 30 peeps. More than that causes stresses in relations. Which goes some way to explaining what an anomaly towns and cities are...they are still not good for us. Most hamlets and villages until fairly recent history were pretty small, obv's historically the Romans had larger towns and cities by the terms of the day, but those soon shrank after they left the UK.

Also, do you think we'd be as successful these days without the advent of huge game changers like antibiotics. Not so long ago a slight infection may have been enough to see us off. Just look at the UK (or even global) population growth charts from the mid 1850's onwards. With the likes of sanitation etc it's a steep ascent, and the curve is off like a rocket once antibiotics hit the scene. But i digress.....

Thank you for the rich, thought provoking reply. I'm totally down with it. Your reference to the 30 max population size for peaceful communities is fascinating and new to me. Are you aware of any reputable statistic that estimates populations, either in Britain or globally, before and after the Neolithic?

Certainly, farming was - in Mesolithic terms - the original sin (again, paraphrasing R. Bradley), an affront to Mother Earth. Permanent settlements lead to greater populations, and with a greater concentration of people the birth of a hierarchy and a need to create monuments to claim the landscape - Bradley discusses early Neolithic henges and passage graves in this context, where ties to the ancestral dead legitimate one's ties to the land. This syncs with what I've read about the remarkable phenomenon of cave art in Franco-Cantabria - Chauvet, Lascaux, etc. - during the Upper Paleolithic. The theory is that during that late stage of the Ice Age, conditions for good hunting and fishing were limited to that area of Southern France and Northern Spain, forcing Paleolithic hunter-gatherers to compete for a smaller area of land and resources. This situation fostered "prematurely" permanent settlements, and as a result, a more complex social organization and culture capable of such peerless marvels as the cave paintings, which we might interpret in a way similar to Neolithic monuments in so far as they establish a group's ancestral rights to a specific area and the exploitation of its resources. Politics and religion really do go hand in hand.

Zariadris wrote:
Politics and religion really do go hand in hand.
I believe this is called a theocracy. Alleged by the Romans that 'The Druids' (I do hate that word) hold over the populous was the very same, and I guess ditto to some extent with the influence of the powerful medieval church who had the ear of most rulers of the time. Islam too is very much one, with the Imam's having a similar role to the iron age druid. I'm sure there are other modern examples too...poss shaman in various worldwide communities?

Not read much Bradley, then again, I've not really read many archaeology books in recent years either other than Richard Morris's 'Times Anvil' which started off rather well, and now I'm mired in the middle, and picking off a chapter at a time when I remember/ can be bothered. Kinda worth a read, but maybe my head ain't in the right place currently for it... can be picked up cheap second hand....review here...
https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/reviews/times-anvil-england-archaeology-and-the-imagination-by-richard-morris-8465442.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar%27s_number
This is quite interesting...it states approx 150 people as being the average number of a 'comfortable' population, the example given being people you wouldn't be embarrassed to have a drink with if you bumped into them. But of that group, 42% of the group is involved in 'social grooming', so maybe not so harmonic as we'd like. Can't remember where I got the 30 peeps number from...will try to find out...may have been something particularly pertaining to hunter/gatherer groups?

This is an interesting link too...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter-gatherer

In regard to the Paleolithic art.....I don't know a whole lot about it, did a have a couple of interesting books by Paul G Bahn years ago (long since given away) with lots of lovely illustrations. And as a kid had a waste paper basket with the Lascaux horses colour printed on it (didn't every kid of this age have this bin in their bedroom? I remember at least a few friends having the same one :) (This is it....https://www.ebay.ie/itm/163289849851)

Anyhoo, I digress again, what I was gonna say is, I think it's in our nature to leave our mark, be that in ochre, stone or steel. I truly believe it's hard wired into us...something to do with our consciousness and awareness of our unique position in being able to influence our surroundings and the wider world at large (though more and more studies are finding a 'sentience' in many more animals and creatures, so what do I know ;)

edit..sure you've seen this, but if not looks interesting...
http://www.oxfordhandbooks.com/view/10.1093/oxfordhb/9780199551224.001.0001/oxfordhb-9780199551224-e-053