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thesweetcheat wrote:
harestonesdown wrote:
thesweetcheat wrote:
Balance of probability, the stone at Stoney Littleton was more likely than not chosen because it had a whopping great big ammonite it it. Even if it was "chosen" for this reason, once it had been chosen, it was placed in the structure in such a way as to show the ammonite off, right by the entrance. True that we don't categorically "know" it was deliberately chosen, but seems far more likely than not, doesn't it? You can't exactly fail to notice it and neither could the builders.

As Rhiannon says, far more ridiculous assertions than that get passed off as fact in the wonderful world of megalithic ponderings!

But Alken, many people have visited SL and missed this particular stone. I think there's even a comment in it's section regarding this ? This doesn't rule the possibility out of course, but it doesn't prove it's purpose either.
All true, but loads + loads of "modern" people miss the multiple cupmarked stones at Clava.

My personal opinion, subject to the stone not being a later insertion, or moved (as per ED's question) is that it is far more likely than not to have been chosen by the builders. These were people very very aware of the textures and properties of stone after all, far more than we are. Not people to miss a whopping great big ammonite, no matter how many modern visitors don't spot it :)

With respect i totally disagree again, in regards to them having a greater understanding of stone than modern man. Yes, they had to put far more energy into working it than we do given our technology, but we cut and shape stone to far greater tolerances than they ever did, just look at any marble chip shop counter, and that's at the lower end of the scale, but show me one example where they achieved such finesse ? The pyramids are often cited wrongly, Orkadian monuments similarly.
Could they knap flint in a way that would put our best craftmen to shame, given what they had to work with it's a definite yes, but give me a modern powered saw and i'd make them look like imbeciles in comparison. Just look at some of the knapping slabs available to buy today if you've any doubt !

As for natural features like the ammonite, yes i guess they'd appreciate it more than we would today as they don't have the availability and distribution networks we have to source such pieces, so damn well it was precious, but that's no reason to assume they had a greater understanding of stone, they didn't, it was more a case of greater toil and time consumption, need even, that doesn't equate to skill.
You give me a 10p sized shitty bit of flint and i'll knap an arrowhead that will kill anything just as dead as their pieces could. :)

I've an arrow besides me right now, Wiltshire flint point held in place with pine resin, willow shaft and fletched with a buzzards feather found on Waden Hill, glue is crushed Bluebell bulb, binding is nettle cord. Match that with one of my bows and i could, with practice, match any Neolithic hunter. I respect their use of material, but let's not kid ourselves they were superior in ANY way, they weren't. IMO. ;)

harestonesdown wrote:
I've an arrow besides me right now, Wiltshire flint point held in place with pine resin, willow shaft and fletched with a buzzards feather found on Waden Hill, glue is crushed Bluebell bulb, binding is nettle cord. Match that with one of my bows and i could, with practice, match any Neolithic hunter. I respect their use of material, but let's not kid ourselves they were superior in ANY way, they weren't. IMO. ;)
Picture! Picture! It sounds absolutely great.

One thing I'd stress is that they sometimes may have had the edge on us through the fact they may have had donkey's years of doing something. When I worked on a farm as a lad I was struck by how the old hands could do something simple like chucking bales on a truck all day when I got quickly knackered. You learn to do something perfectly by tiny steps over many years I guess.

On the general principle that they were no better or worse or much different from us I agree with you. If a theory says they did so-and-so because they had different thoughts from us it's a double speculation, which is a bit dodgier than a single one.

The point you were making is that the ammonite stone wasn't necessarily "chosen" by the builders and you pointed out that lots of modern visitors miss it when they visit. My point was that it is more likely than not that the builders were aware of the fossil when they chose that particular stone to go in that particular monument. Based on the fact that they were people who were used to examining stone for its textures and properties, it's highly unlikely that they didn't notice it.

I wasn't suggesting prehistoric people were better, or superior, but I am suggesting that they were familiar with their chosen materials. Taking out the ancient people v modern people aspect, if I build a house, I'll be aware of the particular bricks I use to build the walls. But when people come to my house, it's not certain that they will notice. So a visting TMA-er not noticing the ammonite stone isn't really either here or there as to whether the stone was chosen by the builders. :)

Your arrow sounds amazing. It sounds like you made it yourself? I made a fish hook on a course, it wasn't as complicated as that, it had two types of wood and some birch root. But having made it I can imagine that you had 'to go to various places to fetch the materials for your arrow, for the nettles and the resin and the flint and the wood and the feather and the bluebells, it's a lot of different places, a lot of input of time and effort, and you can remember where you got those things perhaps. And when you'd got them, you had to know what to do with them. It's a combination of a lot of local knowledge and skills. I mean I'm assuming you feel pretty chuffed when you look at it, and it reminds you of all the stages of the process (unless of course you're churning them out all the time)?

Anyway what is my point, there's not much of one really. I think, that it's not the same as rocking up with a power saw? Because you don't know how to make a power saw (I'm assuming) so using it isn't quite the same as fashioning a bit of flint to make your arrow shaft all straight and smooth? Anyone can wield a power saw and cut through something, it's the tool doing it more than the person. But isn't there an extra level of satisfaction and skill from making the tools you need to do a job?

Also (and this is even vaguer) I was thinking about the different powers of observation one might have in the neolithic perhaps. In that you're living more closely in your environment, when you depend directly on it for food. Going to sainsbury's and being able to recognise a tin of tomatoes isn't quite the same. And we're so bombarded with images and information, maybe we kind of retreat from the world a bit these days. If you live amongst what you depend on to live, maybe you observe it better? I mean I've been through the whole art education thing and I know you can train yourself to observe the world in a different way, that it makes you notice things that other people don't. That really a lot of the time we go round in a daze, we're not mindful of what we're looking at or hearing or whatever, because our minds are somewhere else completely. Maybe with fewer distractions and a need to get some dinner, we'd have been more 'present' in the neolithic? And being more 'present' one wouldn't wander past a thumping great ammonite right in one's face on the front of the tomb of your ancestors.

I dunno. I should now get the Unwarranted Speculation award handed over from the heritage trust / Neil Oliver's programme.