How is Rock Art aged?

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tiompan T
tiompan Dec 19, 2012 12:45:38
Replying to Evergreen Dazed

Evergreen Dazed wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Evergreen Dazed wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Evergreen Dazed wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Evergreen Dazed wrote:
Tiompan, do you know if the 'hoof marks' at Cothiemuir are bona fide? They seem odd, being on the outer face of the recumbent.
I'm confident they are natural .
So the stone was perhaps selected, do you think? Its some coincidence that they are located where the moonset can be viewed. (But then again, obviously not visible if observing from the centre of the circle)
Possibly the reason it was chosen . The main thing about Cothiemuir and most other recumbents is that the low summer moon can be seen to move between the flankers as seen from (roughly ) the centre of the circle .
If you move a bit from the centre in any direction the phenomenon will still be much the same . It's the recumbent as a whole that is the "screen" and a small unseen spot on the outside of the recumbent has no impact orientationwise .
And yet.. if there was no importance orientation wise, and if the stone was selected, as suggested, because of the natural marks, why not turn the recumbent round and have them facing inwards and visible to the observer?

Even though the marks are not visible to the observer as they are, it seems they chose to put them in a certain place, that being the area of the moonset?

It can be the the point of the moonset at very particular time ,and not necessarily auspicious ,importantly it depends where you are observing from . How does the observer know where that particular spot is ? move a metre and the orientation is out . How do you see the other marker which is hidden from view ?
Of course, very problematic. "I don't know" is the answer, sadly.
I have visited, but can't remember, whereabouts is the cist?

Just posting this again in case it was missed :

Its summit [the recumbent] is relatively even, rising gently towards the E, and on the outer face there are at least two possible cupmarks, situated to the W of the natural indentations known as The Devil’s Hoofmarks
(Canmore)

So genuine(?) cupmarks on the outer face, as well as the natural marks?

Also, if we are talking 'drama' (and who can say we aren't?) it could be aan area for a person or persons to stand, perhaps to be illuminated at that moonset time, 'callanish' style.

Fanciful, that one, I grant you!

I don't think there is anything going for the "hoof mark "moonset idea to be honest .
There was a roughly central ring cairn . There is a slab of rock in the middle but whether prehistoric ? , possibly not .
There are examples of rock art and cup marks on recumbents no doubt about that ,those at Cothiemuir are "possibles " i.e. not that convincing/difficult to be sure .
Drama , why not . But when you think of other monumnets that have astro alignments like passage graves , punters in the passage acting dramatically or even being there is unlikely , maybe what matters is the alignment itself .

E Evergreen Dazed
Evergreen Dazed Dec 19, 2012 13:28:50
Replying to tiompan

tiompan wrote:
Evergreen Dazed wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Evergreen Dazed wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Evergreen Dazed wrote:
tiompan wrote:
Evergreen Dazed wrote:
Tiompan, do you know if the 'hoof marks' at Cothiemuir are bona fide? They seem odd, being on the outer face of the recumbent.
I'm confident they are natural .
So the stone was perhaps selected, do you think? Its some coincidence that they are located where the moonset can be viewed. (But then again, obviously not visible if observing from the centre of the circle)
Possibly the reason it was chosen . The main thing about Cothiemuir and most other recumbents is that the low summer moon can be seen to move between the flankers as seen from (roughly ) the centre of the circle .
If you move a bit from the centre in any direction the phenomenon will still be much the same . It's the recumbent as a whole that is the "screen" and a small unseen spot on the outside of the recumbent has no impact orientationwise .
And yet.. if there was no importance orientation wise, and if the stone was selected, as suggested, because of the natural marks, why not turn the recumbent round and have them facing inwards and visible to the observer?

Even though the marks are not visible to the observer as they are, it seems they chose to put them in a certain place, that being the area of the moonset?

It can be the the point of the moonset at very particular time ,and not necessarily auspicious ,importantly it depends where you are observing from . How does the observer know where that particular spot is ? move a metre and the orientation is out . How do you see the other marker which is hidden from view ?
Of course, very problematic. "I don't know" is the answer, sadly.
I have visited, but can't remember, whereabouts is the cist?

Just posting this again in case it was missed :

Its summit [the recumbent] is relatively even, rising gently towards the E, and on the outer face there are at least two possible cupmarks, situated to the W of the natural indentations known as The Devil’s Hoofmarks
(Canmore)

So genuine(?) cupmarks on the outer face, as well as the natural marks?

Also, if we are talking 'drama' (and who can say we aren't?) it could be aan area for a person or persons to stand, perhaps to be illuminated at that moonset time, 'callanish' style.

Fanciful, that one, I grant you!

I don't think there is anything going for the "hoof mark "moonset idea to be honest .
There was a roughly central ring cairn . There is a slab of rock in the middle but whether prehistoric ? , possibly not .
There are examples of rock art and cup marks on recumbents no doubt about that ,those at Cothiemuir are "possibles " i.e. not that convincing/difficult to be sure .
Drama , why not . But when you think of other monumnets that have astro alignments like passage graves , punters in the passage acting dramatically or even being there is unlikely , maybe what matters is the alignment itself .
Aye, I do see your point. When you look at somehwere like Balnuaran it is hard to imagine a writhing initiate in the path of the setting midwinter sun!

A great subject though. I'd like to look a little deeper into alignments. Do you know of a good site/software for azimuths/declination and general info? Do you use landranger maps to calculate yr declinations for rising/setting sun, for example?

Bear with me here, but if i'm looking along one stone, an outlier for arguments sake, to another, say NW, I guess its a compass bearing, then checking the horizon height via maps? And once you have that, using it to get the declination of (for this example) the rising sun at that point?

If youre willing to share a bit of info on methods, i'm listening!