Tits and necklaces

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Hmmm. Cheers all, just wondered if anyone had any simple answers! LOL!!! Some interesting stuff to go on tho if I have any time to investigate further - esp gw's Paris Basin stuff - thanks gw.

To answer your question, Pilgrim, they're very close - went to Prajou-menhir too. Without checking, I'd guess mebbe 5-6 miles, mebbe even less. The little chamber with the engraving in at Prajou-menhir is a bit of a bugger to squeeze into & worse to get out of btw!!!!

The breasts and necklaces thing seems to be particularly concentrated in N Brittany, though both are found elsewhere - as greywether pointed out re Paris Basin. I wasn't aware of the 'necklaces' being 'above' the breasts there. I also still feel that when below the breasts, if seen as pregnant bellies, they actually lend a lot MORE credence to the 'breasts'.

I'll haveta reread some bits & bats I've got on the Paris basin. (Couldn't see the relevant pic in the link you posted gw - the only engraving one I spotted was the 'goddess' one, which looked more vulvalike than owt to my eyes. (Vaguely like the 'shield idol/goddess efforts in Brittany, which is another one I'd like to know more about the thought processes/credibility of....)

Apologies for the rambling post, but I haveta admit i'm thinking out loud a bit.

I'm not an expert, obviously, but for anyone newly interested, the 'breasts' are not always/usually(?) in long lines like the pic in J's weblog, tho I can't remember seeing anywhere there's just a single pair. And they don't always have the necklaces/bellies in conjunction with 'em. For example, the Maison des Feins allee couverte near Tresse has 2 sets of 2 pairs on 2 stones (a bit like the ones at Prajou in Pilgrim's link, but not in a 'recess') and no necklaces.

It's not really that I'm necessarily doubting the theories, just interested in how much 'direct' stuff has given them credence, as they seem quite established and accepted. When reading about it, I just accepted the concepts, but I started wondering about these theories when I saw my 'first set' at Maison des Feins. The 2 sets of 4 breasts there - essentially just 4 semi-hemispherical projections - as much like breasts as any other semi-hemispherical projection, but no more, to my eyes. Nor do the ones at the place in Pilgrim's link. OK, they're to a larger or smaller extent figurative, but....

We wondered how the breasts theory has become so universally accepted, when they could be testes. Or even summat else. Is it just coz of the frequency with which prehistoric stuff seems connected to fertility and usually goddess stuff? Or is there more direct evidence?

TBH tho, the 'necklaces' thing is the one that I'm REALLY interested in, coz it seems kinda 'off the wall' if you'll pardon the pun.

Meanwhile, greywether's ones above the 'breasts' do make more sense as necklaces, and I was already aware of the Irish 'torc' thang - which I agree tiompan, do look somewhat similar to the Breton 'necklaces'. (I can't really see 'em as belts, tho SL!)

Of course as gw said - they might vary regionally in what they represent & they just look similar....

I'll shurrup now.

love

Moth

Just to expand things a bit .....

(Information taken from Shee Twohig's <i>The Megalithic Art of Western Europe</i> - a book which is better at descriptions than explanations! The drawings in it are taken from rubbings done in the late 70s so may show more than currently visible.)

At <b>Kerguntuil<b/> there are on one stone the the six pairs of "breasts" with the "necklaces" below five of them as shown in your post, Moth. Here the "necklaces" are single, unbroken U-shaped lines

On the stone to the left of that one, are another two pairs of "breasts", one pair on its own and the other with a "necklace" below it but here the "necklace" is a more of a dotted line - like a set of beads if you want to pursue the necklace idea. This second one is almost exactly replicated at <b>Prajou Menhir</b>.

At <b>Tresse</b>, there are two sets of four "breasts" with a "necklace" of the unbroken U-type below each of the right hand pairs.

While the relative positions do not support the necklace idea, you could argue that the "pregnant belly" theory works well with the unbroken line but not with the dotted line.

In the Paris Basin, the "necklaces" are all above the "breasts". There are no groups of "breasts" , just pairs. As for the necklaces, no single, unbroken U's here; they are either three or four unbroken lines of nested U's or one or two lines of "beads". (Diagrams would help here but nowhere to post them!)

At <b>Trau-Aux-Anglais</b>, there is a suggestion of a face above the necklace but it is faint and the proportions are all wrong.

Just to add to the connections between the Breton and Paris art, the rivetted square "shield" seen at <b> Prajou Menhir</b> in Brittany is also seen at <b>Missisippi</b> in the Paris Basin so maybe not so easy to dismiss the two as separate traditions (not saying you were, Moth).

If you want support for the "breasts" and "necklace" idea (to answer your original question) ie that they are not abstract designs wrongly interpreted by archaeos, the carved figures in the Paris Hypogees include two with faces, necklace and breasts all in the correct places! (Another one has a face and necklace without breasts although it is damaged). One of the Gran'Mere statue menhirs in Guernsey has a similar stylised design.

So where does that leave us? There seems to be enough evidence to say that the designs in the Paris area most likely represent breasts and necklaces. I think that explains why archaeos use the same terminology for the Breton sites even if it makes no sense in terms of their positioning.

Its not enough to say, as Twohig does, "when necklaces occur in Breton gallery graves they are inevitably found below the breasts <i> as if their significance was not apparent to the carvers</i>" . (My italics).

I don't have an answer to the Breton question but I'm not convinced about the "pregnant belly" idea because of the dotted line versions.

Phew! Sorry about the length. Fascinating subject though.

>>>> Couldn't see the relevant pic in the link you posted gw - the only engraving one I spotted was the 'goddess' one .....

Know what you mean, it wasn't the best of examples.

This is a bit clearer. It's from La Pierre Turquaise just outside Paris (nice site until it was largely blown up in 1985)
http://rene.clementi.free.fr/vexin/Presles_carnelle/Gravure_entree.jpg

Not sure if we are comparing like with like, but the clearest "breast and necklace" carvings I know of are in Guernsey - see http://www.megalithic.co.uk/article.php?sid=2106157764 and others

You asked if the multi-breasts could be testes - hmm - there is a Greek statue of a deity (can't remember which one) showing very many breasts clustered in rows, but some authorities maintain that they are really testicles! Don't ask me why - looks more like frog spawn to me.