mountainman wrote: Quote: ....."not local and had to be brought to the site without the help of glaciation , particularly in major monuments . e.g. Stonehenge (sarsens ), Newgrange , Old Keig and possibly Brodgar .
Since when did the sarsens at Stonehenge come from a long way off? HH Thomas (among many others) thought they had come from the neighbourhood, and I can't see any evidence to suggest that he was wrong on this one. The fact that Atkinson developed a great story for the sarsen transport doesn't mean it happened. Newgrange? Small white quartz stones from a long way off as "ornamental features" -- wouldn't have a problem with that being done by chaps with haversacks. Old Keig? Where's the evidence that the big stones are not erratics? The Orkney examples -- there are mentions of quarries in connection with the standing stones, but I'd like to have a look at these sites with reference to ice-movements / erratic distributions as well. At Brodgar, Renfrew thought that the stones had come from the ditch around the stones, and not from the so-called quarry.
In the "The great stone circles project" (Antiquity 2005) there are lots of references to quarries, but somewhat surprisingly the archaeologists involved fail to refer to erratics at all..........
What do I mean by "local"? Thorpe and Williams-Thorpe (Antiquity 1991) looked at all of the UK sites and found that the megalith builders used stones from up to 2 km away quite often, but that there was no case of stones being carried more than 5 km. So let's refer to all of these sites as "using locally-sourced stones."
I had noted that you referred specifically to Britain where glaciation could be used to to explain movement of stones over much it's area and assumed that you would be aware of the movement of much bigger stones over much greater distances than we are talking about here , e.g. Baalbeck , Collosi of Memnon etc . There is no argument about these efforts and glaciation can't be involved so we do have precedents for the movement and quarrying of stones but maybe we shouldn’t expect too much from the occupants of our little island .However the point is the importation not the size or effort .
Bringing something 5K no matter how big particularly when the same quality can be found locally is an important pointer to our understanding . Nevertheless some of the biggest stones at the Bru came from over 5km away .That haversack of quartz probably came 80 Km , that is what matters .
The recumbent at Old Keig could be an erratic but if it is, it had been quarried before glaciation and would therefore be a unique example of Paleolithic masonry .
Obviously builders of monuments use local material , but not all do .
Reply | with quote | Posted by tiompan 15th December 2008ce 16:17 |
The bluestone debate (Littlestone, Jun 14, 2006, 10:57)- Re: The bluestone debate (Spaceship mark, Jun 14, 2006, 13:57)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Jun 15, 2006, 07:15)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Paulus, Jun 15, 2006, 12:30)
- Re: The bluestone debate (juamei, Jun 15, 2006, 12:39)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Littlestone, Jun 15, 2006, 16:01)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Pete G, Jun 15, 2006, 16:06)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Cursuswalker, Jun 17, 2006, 13:18)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Littlestone, Jun 17, 2006, 15:51)
- Re: The bluestone debate (The Eternal, Jun 17, 2006, 23:20)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Pete G, Jun 17, 2006, 23:28)
- And ... (FourWinds, Jun 18, 2006, 08:16)
- Also (StoneLifter, Jun 18, 2006, 09:57)
- Re: Also (nigelswift, Jun 18, 2006, 10:09)
- Re: Also (Steve Gray, Jun 20, 2006, 08:06)
- Re: Also (Littlestone, Jun 20, 2006, 10:15)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Cursuswalker, Jun 18, 2006, 08:22)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Littlestone, Jun 16, 2006, 21:50)
- Re: The bluestone debate (CraigR, Jun 15, 2006, 08:28)
- Re: The bluestone debate (korgilud, Jun 21, 2006, 01:00)
- Last British ice sheet (riverman, Jun 21, 2006, 13:50)
- Re: The bluestone debate (TheDazman, Aug 24, 2008, 23:15)
- Re: The bluestone debate (mountainman, Nov 14, 2008, 18:29)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Stoneshifter, Nov 14, 2008, 18:48)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tiompan, Nov 14, 2008, 18:52)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Nov 15, 2008, 08:51)
- Re: The bluestone debate (mountainman, Nov 15, 2008, 10:03)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Nov 15, 2008, 10:32)
- Re: The bluestone debate (mountainman, Nov 15, 2008, 11:24)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Nov 15, 2008, 12:30)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Stoneshifter, Nov 15, 2008, 14:32)
- Re: The bluestone debate (GordonP, Nov 15, 2008, 17:59)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Stoneshifter, Nov 15, 2008, 18:42)
- Re: The bluestone debate (GordonP, Nov 15, 2008, 19:07)
- Re: The bluestone debate (mountainman, Nov 16, 2008, 14:54)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Nov 16, 2008, 16:12)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Stoneshifter, Nov 16, 2008, 16:34)
- Re: The bluestone debate (mountainman, Nov 16, 2008, 17:38)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Nov 16, 2008, 17:51)
- Re: The bluestone debate (mountainman, Nov 16, 2008, 23:06)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Nov 17, 2008, 06:06)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Stoneshifter, Nov 17, 2008, 07:50)
- Re: The bluestone debate (mountainman, Nov 17, 2008, 09:26)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Nov 17, 2008, 09:44)
- Re: The bluestone debate (mountainman, Nov 17, 2008, 10:22)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Stoneshifter, Nov 17, 2008, 12:05)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tiompan, Nov 17, 2008, 12:37)
- Re: The bluestone debate (mountainman, Nov 17, 2008, 13:41)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Nov 17, 2008, 14:55)
- Re: The bluestone debate (GordonP, Nov 17, 2008, 18:39)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Nov 18, 2008, 05:22)
- Re: The bluestone debate (GordonP, Nov 18, 2008, 08:40)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Nov 18, 2008, 09:06)
- Bluestones (Stoneshifter, Nov 18, 2008, 10:39)
- Re: The bluestone debate (GordonP, Nov 18, 2008, 10:59)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Nov 18, 2008, 11:56)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Steve Gray, Nov 18, 2008, 14:28)
- Re: The bluestone debate (GordonP, Nov 18, 2008, 15:34)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Nov 18, 2008, 15:48)
- Re: The bluestone debate (GordonP, Nov 18, 2008, 16:38)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tiompan, Nov 18, 2008, 16:44)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Steve Gray, Nov 18, 2008, 17:50)
- Re: The bluestone debate (GordonP, Nov 18, 2008, 18:36)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Steve Gray, Nov 18, 2008, 20:57)
- Re: The bluestone debate (GordonP, Nov 18, 2008, 21:43)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Steve Gray, Nov 18, 2008, 22:21)
- Re: The bluestone debate (GordonP, Nov 18, 2008, 22:42)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Steve Gray, Nov 18, 2008, 23:32)
- Re: The bluestone debate (GordonP, Nov 19, 2008, 17:35)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Steve Gray, Nov 19, 2008, 21:12)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Nov 19, 2008, 21:29)
- Re: The bluestone debate (GordonP, Nov 19, 2008, 22:26)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Steve Gray, Nov 19, 2008, 23:52)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Nov 20, 2008, 07:23)
- Re: The bluestone debate (GordonP, Nov 20, 2008, 10:40)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Nov 20, 2008, 11:05)
- Re: The bluestone debate (GordonP, Nov 20, 2008, 11:40)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Nov 20, 2008, 11:49)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Steve Gray, Nov 20, 2008, 15:46)
- Re: The bluestone debate (GordonP, Nov 20, 2008, 18:25)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tonyh, Nov 20, 2008, 18:42)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Steve Gray, Nov 20, 2008, 19:02)
- Re: The bluestone debate (GordonP, Nov 20, 2008, 19:16)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tonyh, Nov 20, 2008, 19:22)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Steve Gray, Nov 20, 2008, 19:39)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tonyh, Nov 20, 2008, 19:48)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tonyh, Nov 20, 2008, 20:10)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Steve Gray, Nov 20, 2008, 20:10)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tonyh, Nov 20, 2008, 20:19)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tonyh, Nov 20, 2008, 20:38)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Steve Gray, Nov 20, 2008, 21:02)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tonyh, Nov 20, 2008, 21:11)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tonyh, Nov 20, 2008, 21:13)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tonyh, Nov 20, 2008, 21:19)
- For what it's worth... (Moth, Nov 21, 2008, 02:33)
- Re: For what it's worth... (goffik, Nov 21, 2008, 12:14)
- Re: For what it's worth... (tonyh, Nov 21, 2008, 18:54)
- Re: For what it's worth... (tonyh, Nov 21, 2008, 21:04)
- Re: For what it's worth... (GordonP, Nov 21, 2008, 21:42)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tonyh, Nov 20, 2008, 18:07)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tonyh, Nov 18, 2008, 18:48)
- Bluestains debated (Stoneshifter, Nov 18, 2008, 20:06)
- Re: The bluestone debate (mountainman, Dec 05, 2008, 20:18)
- Re: The bluestone debate (fitzcoraldo, Nov 17, 2008, 13:58)
- Re: The bluestone debate (GordonP, Nov 17, 2008, 17:05)
- Re: The bluestone debate (sleeptowin, Nov 18, 2008, 21:37)
- Re: The bluestone debate (sleeptowin, Nov 19, 2008, 12:42)
- Re: The bluestone debate (sleeptowin, Nov 20, 2008, 10:06)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Littlestone, Nov 22, 2008, 22:15)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Littlestone, Nov 23, 2008, 07:42)
- Re: The bluestone debate (mountainman, Dec 13, 2008, 21:46)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Littlestone, Dec 13, 2008, 22:01)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Dec 13, 2008, 23:44)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tiompan, Dec 14, 2008, 00:05)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Littlestone, Dec 14, 2008, 00:28)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tiompan, Dec 14, 2008, 09:44)
- Re: The bluestone debate (mountainman, Dec 14, 2008, 10:33)
- Re: The bluestone debate (moss, Dec 14, 2008, 10:37)
- Re: The bluestone debate (mountainman, Dec 14, 2008, 11:43)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Dec 14, 2008, 12:01)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tiompan, Dec 14, 2008, 12:05)
- Re: The bluestone debate (mountainman, Dec 14, 2008, 14:34)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tiompan, Dec 14, 2008, 14:42)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tiompan, Dec 14, 2008, 14:57)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Dec 14, 2008, 15:12)
- Re: The bluestone debate (mountainman, Dec 15, 2008, 14:35)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tiompan, Dec 15, 2008, 16:17)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Dec 16, 2008, 07:01)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Littlestone, Dec 16, 2008, 16:39)
- Re: The bluestone debate (tiompan, Dec 18, 2008, 17:24)
- Re: The bluestone debate (Littlestone, Dec 14, 2008, 15:22)
- Re: The bluestone debate (nigelswift, Dec 14, 2008, 02:35)
- Re: The bluestone debate (jimthewanderer, Mar 08, 2017, 02:00)
|
|