Places of worship

Evergreen Dazed Aug 1, 2017 13:37:37

Just a thought really, and it ties in to some extent with an earlier conversation about interpersonal violence, but is there any reason not to interpret the people who built the major wessex monuments, for example, as members of an authoritarian, elitist, dictatorial, religious cult?
It seems a far more likely scenario to me than any idea of a 'Golden age'.
I understand it might not be a particularly pleasant thing to think about if you like visiting these places (as I do). And from that thought, is part of our fascination with prehistoric archaeology merely tied up in the rare luxury of being able to project thoughts, dreams or ideas onto what is largely a blank canvas? Why did what we might call the 'new age' movement adopt these places? Especially when they have so many similarities to christian places of worship?

I'm typing quickly, short on time, would have preferred to explain my thoughts more thoroughly, but i'm sure you get the drift. thought it might make for a decent discussion.

tjj Aug 1, 2017 14:35:50

Replying to Evergreen Dazed

It is a good topic for discussion. Some places seem score more on the likelihood scale and those places often seem to have a place of early (and then later) Christian worship superimposed on them. Am thinking particularly of Kilmartin with all its cairns, one dating back to the Neolithic; all the standing stones and of course rock art. The Ormaig rock carving are on a hillside overlooking Loch Craignish and seem to sign the way towards Kilmartin - as you draw near to Kilmartin two large standing stones appear, only really visible from that direction - way-markers perhaps. Kilmartin now has a church with some very early christian carved grave stones in its small cemetery but it is the prehistoric cairn cemetery which dominates the landscape. I cannot believe this was not a place of worship pre-Christian. Opposite Ormaig on the other side of Loch Crainish are the remains of a very early Christian chapel and others all around the area. The Irish traveled there for some reason and it is certain people traveled between Ireland and the west coast of Scotland prior to Christianity - the religion may have changed but the people were the same.

ironstone Aug 1, 2017 14:42:16

Replying to Evergreen Dazed

I think the answer to your first paragraph is 'yes, of course they might well have been.' As soon as religious/spritual belief acquired (or required) priests/elders etc to 'interpret' what nature was doing (and hence all the various gods and the heirarchies they spawned) it seems to me that almost by their very nature these 'movements' would have become dogmatic and authoritarian. However, bear in mind that in the Neolithic/Bronze Ages people's primary loyalties/attachments would have been to their immediate locality and family groups (rather than to a tribe, let alone a nation or other wider sphere of identification) so perhaps there would have been less scope for the sort of mass indoctrination or subjugation one commonly associates with cults or dictatorial setups. The stuff Mike Parker Pearson has done in floating this idea of people gathering seasonally to build/participate in rituals at Stonehenge is suggestive of a 'persuasive' (for want of a better word) element in being able to galvanise such a relatively large proportion of the population but I guess we'll never be able to understand the extent to which it was all hippy-dippy peace 'n love as opposed to creepily coercive. For me that's what makes these sites so enigmatic, the fact that we simply do not know the how, why and what and so yes, we're able to project our own sympathies/fancies.
Good question; would love to know the answer.

tiompan Aug 1, 2017 15:39:41

Replying to Evergreen Dazed

Evergreen Dazed wrote:

Why did what we might call the 'new age' movement adopt these places?

No doubt that a lot of New age / Neo pagan beliefs about ancient monuments derive from Gerald Gardner , Margaret Murray and the Wiccan movement's adoption of them and their associated folklore .
Ethan Doyle White wrote “ a great paper “ Devil's Stones and Midnight Rites: Megaliths,Folklore, and Contemporary Pagan Witchcraft “ in the Folklore journal . http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/0015587X.2013.860766?journalCode=rfol20

Add a dash of Watkins' ley lines , which later became the unfalsifiable “Earth energies “ when the problems about the earlier “vision” became clear , a touch of ancient computing didn't go amiss either .

moss Aug 3, 2017 10:44:41

Replying to Evergreen Dazed

" I've seen plenty evidence of Life... creative and groovy RA, shell middens, stone tools, later Bronze implements, Neolithic Cairns, BA Cairns... but not any evidence of religious worship."

Having a 'belief' stands at the core of the human psyche - yes I know you modern sceptics would argue otherwise - but I am with HD that life through survival and work is the important factor in most human societies. Alignments of stones could be as much to do with seasonal and practical stuff.
Religion is a teaching mechanism, a way of keeping people in control, if there is any parallel than look at the decoration of churches over the centuries compared to the stones, and interpret the stories they are telling, if you can of course.